Building Connection Beyond the Fiat Model

Jose Leal (00:09):

And welcome to the Radical World Podcast. I'm Jose Leal. Today I'm joined Joanna Staniszewska. I almost did, almost, almost did it. We were just talking about how to pronounce that in, in in sort of the Russian dialect means to stand. And I'm used to that. And, and so I keep thinking that that's the way that I'm gonna pronounce anything. So stand up. Well, here you go. Stand up and be heard. Welcome growing up to the Radical Podcast. Thank you for being here. More importantly, thank you for adding your voice to this radical world of ours. And I wonder if you'd like to introduce yourself a little bit. Tell us why you, interesting you talk to why, why your voice should be heard in this.

Joanna Staniszewska (01:17):

First of all Jose and Carlos, not visible here. Thank you so much for the invitation. We know Jose, each other for longer time, and we had many conversations like this before. Maybe not many, but few. Yeah. And so why should I be here? Because we are sharing a lot, not everything. Thanks, God. Because then we would not be diverse. We, we could not exchange. And I'm here because I'm bringing something to you. What I bring, I bring my experience and knowledge. And from very early stage when I was a child, I was living in Libya for three and a half years as a child, I remember accepting everything that was coming. The different culture was not different for me. It was like, it was, it was different for my parents who were from a different culture. And they were comparing everything to the culture they lived at the moment. Then I had the chance to have five months trip to us as a teenager. And it was in the moment when communism collapsed in Poland. Oh. And everything was like crazy big in America. We had small cinemas. You had multiplexes as we have now in Poland. And they were, of course, I was perceiving it as a teenager. So it was important for me. Different things were important for me not as I would look around today, but it also gave me another perspective. And through the life I had also a chance to travel in different places for a shorter time and see how different, beautifully different we are. And it also gave me an opportunity to learn more about cultures also in a communication aspect. I wrote one piece for Austrian University's conference universe Universal Means of Communication. And I was trying to explore, is there any universal means? Meaning human level communication. That is beyond language. I had a wonderful conversation with Francois recently, I hope he's watching. He signed in on LinkedIn about the languages. He used to teach languages also. And he's also prone to many different cultures. And we both were talking about how much language is keeping us a side of many things that are explored in other cultures. Like they say people of North have so many descriptions of snow, right. We cannot imagine. Yeah. So this is just one example. And also we discover that if we are in certain culture, we are thinking in this language, we're probably, you had the same because you are, yeah. Not many people know it. Especially those who don't know many languages and are not exposed to the culture with the certain language for a longer time. So that was also something that showed us that with Francois, it's there are changes in us that we even don't. Sometimes it's easier to, to say something in, in one language, not so easy, another language. And that means that we as a different cultures are a piece of pieces of puzzle. And we can I hope technology will help us. But unless you feel the culture and language, it's, it's intangible. It's in us. So that is the, the, the field that I'm exploring on myself and also with other people. And like Francois. And this is what I would like to combine also with this conscious communication, meaning that we know that our communication is impactful and in which way, when we realize that we can of course check in ChatGPT information about how impactful is negative communication and how impactful is good communication. And I have bad news.

Jose Leal (06:17):

I wonder if I can jump in because cause There's two things that, that, that strikes for me what you've just said. And thank you for, for sharing that. Because when I was a kid in, in high school, I was very involved. I was an immigrant myself from, from Portugal into the United States. And I was very involved in a community that was very diverse here in, in California. And we had a lot of exchange students. We had a lot of immigrants. And so I was surrounded by multiple languages, by multiple cultures, by all of that. And it felt natural to me. But it was interesting, now that I connect with some of my colleagues from school decades later. I won't say how many decades that their, their life was different. Their experience of school was different. Because they were in their clique. And, and, and it may have been that they were in their Chinese clique, or the, they may have been in their English, you know, American Greek. But it was, it was a different experience for them of the diversity that the culture had. So it's, it even within a diverse culture that a lot of people don't have the diversity. And I think that that kind of describes what we're experiencing in work. Cause In most organizations, there's a consolidation of work that, that their work culture. And, but there's also those cliques where some people sort of have their own little environment and their own little way of, of, of living. And so as you know, we, we call the current way of work the fiat system or the fiat way of working. And I think that what I'm sort of sensing, and, and in us, and you and I, the diversity that we're, that we've that you described, is that, that diversity doesn't always break into the mainstream culture of work. Right. That the mainstream culture of work seems to be sort of homogenous. Does that feel right to you? Does that make sense to you?

Joanna Staniszewska (08:50):

Yeah. I before answering this question, I would love to ask you to say more or less what's fiat model, because I, I had to learn it yeah. Recently, thanks to you. And when I put it in a Google, I found the model of Fiat quite a different way. So please.

Jose Leal (09:15):

Yeah. So it was actually Matt Perez the partner my partner on Radical World who, who coined a term. And it was when we were writing the book, the, the radical company's book, when we we're talking about the fact that the system of work that we live in is built on a whole bunch of assumptions. And those assumptions are really about having to control the, the people in the organization to control the system of the organization, and to dictate what needs to happen and how it needs to happen. Because there's a, a perception, there was a perception as we started to create these types of organizations that we live in today, that it must be commanded and controlled in order for them to be functional. Of course, this was a hundred plus years ago, two, 300 years ago, where there were people who are educated and there were people who aren't. And most organization in those days were made up of these two classes, the educated class, and the uneducated class. And so, fiat really is about this understanding that we modeled our system of work on royalty. That there is a king of the organization, and that that king or queen has the power to dictate what's going to happen. And that's held on, like, we've got rid of kings and queens and most of our countries, but we haven't gotten rid of kings and queens in our organizations. Right. And so, fiat is really about describing a system where individuals have the power to rule the organization from on high by fiat, by dictate. And so what we realized is that, that, that our system of work isn't just accepted that that's okay, even though it's not okay in our, in our de democratic countries, but it's okay. Within an organization. We walk in and we give up our freedom, we give up our autonomy and we become subjects of the rulers of, of the organization. So that's, that's how we describe fiat as not just an organization, but the whole system of thinking that leads up to us being, you know, we, we graduating college and we're like, oh, I need to go become an employee for somebody, and I need to find a place that's going to be a nice employer. Like, that whole mindset of being an employee is tied to that fiat system of thinking. Does that make sense?

Joanna Staniszewska (12:27):

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for explaining that. I believe it's new to many people like it was for me. I agree with you. I wrote recently a article on LinkedIn exactly from the age what's going on underneath the recruitment and hr. And it was the paradox that from one hand, we want creative people who are brave who, who think independently. And from the other hand, if we recruit people, we accept, we accept only those who fit <laugh>. So like, what kind of change do we expect to have with the people that fits?

Jose Leal (13:15):

Right.

Joanna Staniszewska (13:16):

This is just one of the examples. And so we, we play this game and we don't sense the nuances of it and the paradoxes, as I said, which is unfortunately all putting people in the frames and constraints that they cannot be themselves, which is also about authenticity and professionalism. I was also writing about that which means that they are not free as you said. What, what it, it implicates. It implicates that they put the hands up and they, okay, give me something. And I heard one of the bosses saying, I need to load them up. And I said, please don't load me up because I'm loading up myself, you know, and this is the, the mentality of if I will not give them the task this kind of micromanagement they will not work. Right. But if look at the people that they have own sense also they want to have fun out of work. So they will look for things that they like, don't put why we put them in the job they don't like to do. Why we don't fit to people, and we people fit fits to, to organizations. So this, this means that that would be great to give people freedom. They will know what to do. They will learn how to do it it by themselves, because they will feel responsibility and they will be people that we can rely on. And it's not even say employee because it's another label.

Jose Leal (15:03):

Exactly. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. The idea of being an employee to me has become disgusting because it really means to be used by someone. Right? That's how we say the word comes from, to employ a tool, to use a tool.

Joanna Staniszewska (15:28):

Resource.

Jose Leal (15:29):

To, to use a resource to employ a resource. And humans aren't resources. Humans are not resources. Humans are parts of nature, parts of life that are here to serve life. And we've created a structure, a system where we think of ourselves as tools to be employed by organizations. So we've put the organization above ourselves, and then the organization's purpose, whatever that might be, becomes ours. Because we have to adopt the purpose. We have to align with the organization's purpose. And today's organizations, primarily, their purpose is to make money. Right? And, and we've lost sight of what it is as human beings. We feel we need, and we don't, back to the point of today's conversation, we don't communicate about our needs as human beings. We communicate about the purpose of the organization or the, or the function of the organization. Not even the purpose. Very often as we say, well, we have to serve that for the organization, or we will get fired, or we won't get promoted. Or we, because we're, it's all about us serving it rather than us serving ourselves and serving life in general. Does that align with what you've been thinking about and what you've been

Joanna Staniszewska (17:13):

Doing? Yes. I would say even that I would ask why it is like this, and I have an answer, very short answer, and we'll be hap we'll be happy to hear what you want to say on that. Mostly we are not aware of any other thoughts we may have. We are not connected with ourselves understood by mind, body, and. Some, some people say soul by emotions. We don't know. We are emotions. We don't recognize emotions. We are often unable to stand aside and see, oh, I'm angry, you know, not being angry. Yeah. Right. At the moment we're saying, assessing that, do I want to be angry? No, I don't. I I know techniques to, to change it. No, this is not the path. So what I'm catching myself with is that I'm saying what I think, you know, blah, blah, blah. And people don't understand why it's not in the mainstream, because people are not yet there. They don't understand sometimes what we are talking about. Like Yeah. How because we do as children development leaps leap leap. So it's not like linear. Yeah. It's like, woo, I just got, I just understood something. That's awesome. You know? Oh, wow. I feel it. Oh, I don't feel fear anymore. You know, this kind of feelings are around us. So I'm curious how you perceive it, but, but because I will just summary it, that the first work is work inside of us, and the next step is caring about ourselves being assertive, not arrogant in perception of others. And then we are ready to stand out and be with others, not talk, not necessarily talk.

Jose Leal (19:22):

I think I, I would've said that, that that's what I believed a few years ago. That what you just said is, is exactly how I saw it. I, I no longer feel that that's really what, what does happen or what needs to happen, I think it all happens simultaneously that the way that I learn to be better able to judge and manage and regulate myself. Is with people like you showing me that that's how I do it, and that I'm showing you that that's how we do it. And that, that that personal self-regulation and group self-regulation, there's no separation between the two. It, it's, it's not that I can do it independently in some back room and then show up and say, I've already done my personal development. I'm ready, I'm ready. Right. That I, I can meditate for five years and, and show up and say, oh, look, I am, because I don't think we can integrate in self develop if we personally develop with people who haven't been part of that journey. It's a, it's a combination of these things. And, and I don't think you meant that, that way, that, you know, I have to go do it and then come show up. But I think it's important that we really highlight the fact that it is communal. That we are, that the way we develop ourselves about understanding everything you said, I agree with, about understanding our feelings, about understanding why our feelings are there, how our feelings regulate self-regulate on our behalf. Right. They're trying to help us move through the world. And, and sometimes they're wrong and sometimes they're very, very right and we're not listening. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And we're not paying attention. And when this process of evolution of us as, as human beings, as you said in stages that happened throughout our lives isn't happening in collaboration, then we're not in sync with those people around us. And then we run into issues the other way around where it's like, yes, I've started this process of, of evolving, but it hasn't been done in my community. So now I'm out of sync with my community unity. And, and so it, I think it has to happen as an individual, as a group, and as an organization together. Not all at the same time. Not all in the same process, but it has to be a communal process. 'cause If it's not a communal process, then I think we're creating dysfunction again. Does that make sense?

Joanna Staniszewska (22:47):

Yeah. Thank you for pointing it out. Actually, I didn't say that we need to do it alone.

Jose Leal (22:52):

Yeah. I know you didn't, but.

Joanna Staniszewska (22:54):

Because it could be received that way. So thank you for that. Yeah. I absolutely agree. My, my journey, my own journey was also, and it's still about being and talking with other people, and I'm still exposed to something I don't understand, doesn't make sense to me. It's bother bothering me. And thanks to feeling and knowing that it can be different. I can stand it. Because I know everyone is on the own journey, and not everyone will evolve as we would like to. Some will not even try. And accepting it is a big relief, <laugh>, because then you can just be a living example. You don't have to say anything. You just can show people. I mean, show is by a product. Product. Yeah. It's not the mean, the, the goal is itself. It's by,

Jose Leal (24:00):

It's not telling them or teaching.

Joanna Staniszewska (24:03):

No, no, no, no, no. Just, you know, being the way we, we we learn to be. This is, I think, enriching for others.

Jose Leal (24:17):

The, the, the idea that that we're going through a process ourselves as individuals, and we're working in organizations that dictate to us how we should be, creates a rupture, in my view. A rupture between our ability to, to grow and to connect. And to be a part of community and a connection that is authentic. Because we, one can't be ourselves. Two, we have, we have to always have an ear out for what the expectation is. From the boss, from their boss, from their from the organization as a whole. And we're never in, in a place where we can actually be ourselves. One of the things that we talk about as a radical company is that we have to self-manage, but self-manage, or co-manage as we prefer to say. 'cause It's really not about just the self. Right. It is about a community management that as we're doing that, we can't be in an environment where there is ultimately somebody who can pull the pin on, on this self-regulation. And so how do we have an organization that has, that allows for the freedom for us to be ourselves, to actually co-manage together, co-regulate. When at the end of the day, there's a person or a group of people who have the reigns of an organization. So we say it's not only about co-managing, but also co-owning. Because the co-ownership gives us that freedom to do that exploration. We can't do it in absence of that. We're always, human beings are amazing at recognizing that someone else has control, has power, and that we need to respect that power because we could, we're at risk. And that natural propensity as human beings like every other animal, right? Every other animal that's a pack animal pays attention. Who's, who's doing what, where are they at? And am I, you know, am I going to risk being smacked upside the head? Right? And in today's world, being smacked upside, the head doesn't really happen physically. But you can get demoted. You cannot get promoted. You can get fired. You can, you know, be thrown off into some other project. And those things are con keeping us back from really connecting with each other, because we're more worried about playing the game than we are about being genuine. So I don't think in today's organizations as they sit, we can actually be ourselves. That we can only be ourselves when we transform ourselves and transform the structure of the organization to support that being ourselves. It's, again, it's both.

Joanna Staniszewska (27:52):

Let me share about my company where we managed to, we created something like this. That you describing how it happened first. Good recruitment. So paying attention to something more than just skills. And it's more than soft skills. Something, something values something. The, the, the, the four D not four fifth D dimension. Then trust people. That's like horrible thing to think about. Exactly. Trust people. And then if they have the freedom, their own kingdom, let's say they take responsibility. They're delivering on time, they're doing good job, and they are happy of the outcomes, and they're happy being part of the bigger oneness. And it happened to me, I'm blessed with this experience, and then I know it's possible with the all team recently that I had. And it was wonderful feeling because we were breathing, you know what I mean? Together, we were being together. We were like on the flow permanently. We were caring about each other. So like different verbs and nouns are coming here as we used to use in hierarchy that you described the activism that we have here. Being under someone and waiting for orders, actually. So this we are too serious playing this game. Yeah. Yeah. We don't see it's a game. We, we are actually in the game playing the role.

Jose Leal (29:56):

And, and even when, and what I love is when I talk to people who say, well, no, my boss is a good boss. And, you know, they're, they're not micromanagers. They're okay. But there's this subtle force that, that we don't pay attention to. There's evidence scientific evidence of blood pressure changing from being at home to walking into the office, that we're in a much more heightened state of awareness because we're, it's an environment of threat. It's an environment that could, that is risky. You could say the wrong thing, be in the wrong place, do the wrong. And any of those things are impacting us and we don't see it.

Joanna Staniszewska (30:50):

About, what about solution? How to live?

Jose Leal (30:55):

So the solution, we argue, I mean, that's what radical world is, is saying the solution is, is up to us. We don't have to change the current system. We don't have to go and say let's go to a corporation and change that corporation and make them better. They're going to be as good or as bad as they're going to be. We can't change that. And forcing them to change it isn't going to help. But what we can do is create new organizations that, like you described, that you experienced, that are radical organizations that see that what drives our desire to work is not the fact that I've got a boss who's going to pay me. It's the fact that I have an innate desire, to create an innate desire.

Joanna Staniszewska (31:54):

Fulfillment. Yeah. Fulfillments. Yeah.

Jose Leal (31:55):

Exactly. That's what drives me. That's what drives in different ways, different people. Which is good. It doesn't have to be the same in the current system. Money drives everybody. Because if you don't work, you can't survive. What if we have a system that is driven not by the fact that we are employed. But the fact that we are contributing to a community that we co-own and co-manage the fact that it is meaningful, that we feel like we belong, that we're exercising all of these human abilities in ways that are really human.

Joanna Staniszewska (32:42):

That really, yeah. I would add, I would, I I was sorry for interrupting. I would add playfulness, of which sounds of course weird but.

Jose Leal (32:50):

But that's very human.

Joanna Staniszewska (32:51):

We killed it along with our childhood. Yes. And still can be enriching us and giving us pleasure. Yeah.

Jose Leal (33:00):

And it's not just human. That's the amazing thing. Ya, ep a a researcher who's passed away now, I guess four or five years ago they, they called him the rat tickler. Okay. Because he was the first to discover that rats and other animals also laughed the way we do when they play. We can't hear it because it's, it's a different sound that's, I can't remember higher or lower than, than we're capable of hearing. But they can't. And the act of play in mammals is a consistent thing. And we stopped playing because work is serious. Right. And that, I think is another thing that is detrimental in our, in our thing. Yes. Work is serious. It is so serious that we should enjoy it as we're doing this serious work, not so serious that we don't allow ourselves to enjoy it. Don't allow ourselves to be personal with one another and have attachments and connections with people that are genuine. We've stopped connecting with people because that is a risk to the work. Right. We, if we connect with people, we'll get hurt when they leave. We'll people will see that we're too chummy with someone in our work group. And that's not good. 'cause They're too chummy. That's, that's good. That, that causes risks. I think the whole idea that collaboration in today's organizations is possible is completely and utterly impossible. We cannot really genuinely connect with people in, in unsafe environments. And today's organizations are unsafe in many more ways than we describe. It's not just about gender safety. It's not just about being threatened. It's not just about these types of really obvious outward, safe or unsafe, but it is unsafe to walk into an organization that's a fiat organization. By default.

Joanna Staniszewska (35:35):

Toxic. Toxic. It's toxic for our mental health. But not only Yeah, exactly. Because then the mental health goes to the body. And body is also saying No.

Jose Leal (35:47):

Exactly. And, and we talk about burnout and the, the increase of burnout and the, we talk about the increase of the number of people who are disengaged at work. Well, how can you be engaged when you're not connected? When you're not engaged. Yeah. And you're not being asked to be engaged, you're asked to do your job, get it done, leave. That's it. People are working together, spending so many hours together, and yet they don't have a relationship. Yeah. That's inhuman. That's not life itself. To, to stop having connections with one another in a, in a human way.

Joanna Staniszewska (36:33):

Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. I would love to say more, I know the time is running, but I would love to say more about communication to, to be back to the topic. Yeah. I love this flow that we are all always touching what needs to be touched at the very moment. So I totally comfortable with that. But communication is something that I feel we are missing, which is the way we are connecting with the world and the way we are building relationship and the way we impact the world. We even don't know how we are doing it. So that would be great to, to touch also.

Jose Leal (37:13):

Yeah. No, and that, and I think that the conversation so far has really led to that. Because my concern is that the type of communication that we talk about, the level of real communication that really drives the type of connection that's possible has to be in an environment that allows for that level of communication. Right. And that's the concern. It's, it's both. Have we matured enough as individuals and has the environment that we're in become safe enough that that type of communication is possible. But, but tell us about the, the, the conversation that you're, or the type of communication that you're describing.

Joanna Staniszewska (38:00):

Yeah. It's, again, separating some piece out of something is distractional, right. It's not <inaudible>, it's in the environment, as you said, of organizations. So I see that being conscious is the aware is the most important thing here. Because while you are being aware of your communication, you can also be aware how it's impacting others. And for example, like between the world's words, you are getting a, a response on email. Like could you make a synthesis of it? So like, okay. Very, very nice. Yeah, very nice by the way. And yes, of course I may, and I know that in the future, this person is not interested in all information. And I'm not blaming myself. I'm not blaming the other person. You know, this is the fact, and this is also about environments, as you said, organization, but not only it's about how we, because we are, we have so much power being conscious just by being conscious, not doing anything again. And that's is also implicating awareness of the way we say the words we are using the tone of voice and everything else around, around it. So I would love to yeah. Have some, there may be questions from the audience once sometime and, and learn what they're concerned about. Yeah.

Jose Leal (39:39):

Yeah. 'cause I think the, the issue of communication from a, from within a fiat environment is a very different kind of thing. The environment sets the tone of how we can communicate.

Joanna Staniszewska (39:58):

Yeah. But it's fluid again, it's you know what I mean? We, we put a drop of happiness, we put a drop of sadness, we put a, a drop of consciousness.

Jose Leal (40:08):

Right, right. And, and, and all of that, putting a drop of from different people in a different way, in a different environment changes and it changes in ways that are not predictable. Right. Which is the beauty of life itself, because we've created systems that are so predictable that the novelty of life, the, the expression of something unique and new and Yeah. Right here, we've had a conversation that's been 40 minutes that we've been having this wonderful conversation, and it's not gone the way that either of us planned. Yeah. But, but I think it creates an opportunity to have a follow on our conversation that builds on this one, that introduces a new, a new way of doing it because we've set the, we've set the tone, we've set the ground in some way that's different than hopefully than having a conversation that stays so focused on the topic that it doesn't allow us to explore what really we're talking about. Yeah, of course. And hopefully that's what we've done. And unfortunately we've kind of ex gone beyond our 40 minute limit. But I'd love to, to have you back and to continue this conversation in a month or so, to engage in a conversation that, that really touches on more about the how and the why of communication, rather than the context to come communication, which I think we did today.

Joanna Staniszewska (41:53):

Thank you.

Jose Leal (41:54):

It's, yeah. No, thank you. It's been a, a real pleasure. Thank you for, for introducing this topic and for wanting to have this conversation and, and being willing to, to explore wildly as we did for the last 40 minutes. I really appreciate that. Next week we've got Heather Wickman she's the co-founder of Untethered and will be joining us to talk about a radical world as we do here. And learning a little bit about what untethered is doing and what Heather's doing within that context. So we look forward to having Heather joining us next week. Again, Joanna, thank you so much. Thank you. And I look forward to our, our continuing conversation and a future episode and having an opportunity to dig a little deeper into connection and, and how we communicate better in that process.

Joanna Staniszewska (42:57):

All the best. Thank you.

Jose Leal (42:58):

Thank you so much. Cheers.