Disrupting Organizational Hierarchy

Jose Leal:

Welcome to rHatchery Live. I'm Jose Leal. Happy New Year to everybody. Happy New Year. Sissi. Matt Perez, my partner is running late. We're not sure if he's going to be able to join us, but hopefully he will. And I'm Jose Leal, and today's guest is Sissi Wang, Sissi. We typically start with something very personal. If you can tell us a little bit about who you are from Sissi, not the work stuff, but the Sissi, the person so that we can understand who you are, and then talk a little bit about what got you to be invited today.

Sissi Wang:

Absolutely. Well, nice to see you here again, Jose seeing one of your talk shows who was very impressed with the book and the purpose, the Radical Purpose Organization carries. I would say myself maybe three sentences. The first one, I am a explorer in heart. I think life offers us infinite possibilities for us to enjoy fully. The second one is, I would say I'm a warrior in heart. I love to solve injustice and, you know, when I see people's potential being suppressed, and that just really lit me up and I want to do something about it. The third I would say I'm a comedian heart. I love to laugh and you know, end of the day, right? And then, you know, if you dr. Away all the labels and, and fame and the, we have external labels and we just want to have good laugh in the ways that people we love and with the community. So I think that probably summarized me in short and explore a warrior and the comedian.

Jose Leal:

Awesome. there's Matt. Welcome. Matt, you got in. Thank you.

Sissi Wang:

Nice to see you Matt.

Jose Leal:

Yeah, happy New Year. So Sissy, you, you and I talked a little bit behind before you, you're living in Canada now, but you like myself and Matt, we're all immigrants. And what can you tell us a little bit about you, your background as far as having immigrated from Taiwan, you said?

Sissi Wang:

Yeah, so I grew up in a tiny village north part northeast part of China and moved to Canada eight years ago. Have lived internationally, so currently resident in Vancouver. So I lived in San Francisco Bay Area for three years. Vancouver is the 13th city. I lived around the world for the past six. Yeah. So I had the opportunity work and life and, and travel. So very fortunate that way. For the past 16 years, I spent my career kind of in and out corporate. So as a entrepreneur, as a entrepreneur, always leading change and always trying to disrupt. So there's a pattern there. That's why we're having this chat today. So I think for me, one passion I really have is when I see organization designed in the way to fulfill certain objective without considering holistic wellbeing of human beings. And that really bothers me. You know, I have, my career has been with very reputable organizations, IBM and Novartis and Siemens, and I helped scale, you know some famous Canada brand internationally. From that experience, what how was intrigued is the architect the governance would create for an organization, and how can we reach to the state that's well balanced, that human potential organization potential are both fulfilled. It's not one above another, it's a existence of abundance.

Matt Perez:

How old were you when you immigrated to

Sissi Wang:

I moved here eight years ago, just in my early 30th.

Matt Perez:

Eight years ago. You speak very good. Good English.

Sissi Wang:

I appreciate that. Yes. I think I probably always passionate about it and I also worked really hard on it.

Matt Perez:

I believe it. I believe it. I try to learn Chinese for 12 minutes.

Sissi Wang:

Well, good luck. Language is very difficult to learn as adults.

Matt Perez:

Either one. The, the Mandarin and the Cantonese, they're tunnel. I don't hear the difference.

Sissi Wang:

I don't understand Cantonese. I can read Cantonese, but speaking wise is very different. Different pronunciation system.

Matt Perez:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm kind of sick, so you hear my voice and I'm, I'm okay. I mean, I'm not okay, but I'm okay.

Sissi Wang:

I'm glad. Yeah.

Jose Leal:

Sissi when you described yourself, I heard myself in you.

Sissi Wang:

You did, wonderful.

Jose Leal:

Because I think what you recognize about the fact that you, I I like to call it fairness. You called it I think, injustice. But there's this, there's this sense that we have that something just isn't right. And it, it's, it's not really a conscious decision. It's a feeling of just, I have to fix it. I have to do something about it. And I think that's, that's part of why radical even exists Yeah. Is that we feel this desire to make work better. Both Matt and I have worked in, in the corporate world, both of us left that corporate world unhappy with what we were dealing with. And, and the idea of creating a different way of working really stems from, at least for me, stems from that desire to make things better and and be fair towards people. And, and I think what you've just described is, is very true of a lot of people who are in this space trying to find ways to make it better for people, rather than rather than simply keeping everybody happy in the status quo. And, and it sounds like that that's not what you do. So tell us about some of the work that you've done. You've mentioned some corporations. What type of work did you do there more specifically?

Sissi Wang:

So my role has always been the executive leadership in human resources and probably the heart of the organization where we lead and culture change and digital transformations and, and people and talent collaborations. cause Sometimes when you are in a different department, you are more of like a recipient of the stuff that HR designs where the program rolls out. But you are the heart of it, and you are the driver of it, right? You are the engine of the design. So from that point of view, I think I have the firsthand experience they were able to say, right? Or why some organizations' culture, it's just so you know, lack of better English brazen in a way that is toxic. Why some organizations' culture is very fulfilling and very free, very unleashing. And so there is a, a secret in there. I often call this art. It's a art and science. You know, I obviously blessed to grow up in China was such a vast Asian history, and I grew up so much wisdom. And what I see what I'm very cautious about. I don't want make organ corporate as a complete opposition. And I would say from a corporate to a new paradigm, to a new paradigm, it's not revolution. It's an evolution. So the evolution really is meta emphasis process. And it is really encompassed with entire health society moving forward. And I really see two paradigm shift. And in fact, you and I will talk about how long took to write a book ask you, is that ChatGPT time or without ChatGPT right? So we are leaving in this exponential change. So the two paradigm, the first one is I call this global infrastructure upgrade. You talk about exponential technology, right? And so when you are someone's so creative, in the past you probably couldn't do much cause you know, take you forever to learn new skills. And now you have all those tools just on your fingertip and in larger scale how exponential technology disrupting all industries and ai and AI and nanotechnology, Crispr gene editing, longevity, just all the things we used to consider as a status quo has been disrupted. And so that will tremendously shift infrastructure, how humans collaborate and how business runs. And the second paradigm shift is, I call this global consciousness awakening. And put in plain word in covid, as you can see, so many people have questioning the meaning of life. The purpose of life, and how many people have left their considered success, right? And I bought a piece of land and somewhere in Portugal just raised chickens and, and cows. I don't say that's for everybody, but it tells you that we start reconsider and the value we hold to be true to ourselves in life. And they put that together. And overlaid this bullseye is what is the future for all humanity? And I, I believe there's two responsibilities for two sides responsibilities. And one side responsibility is we were responsible for ourselves and to be fully awakened to return truth to our authentic self. And we're all born with innate talent. But when we're going through the mass education system, you know, NASA did a study and they want to track who's the best astronaut, right? So they work with, Kanar University did a study for kindergarten kids, and most kids before fine, 95% of them are geniuses. And once reached 15, only 5% of geniuses have left. And so in the system setting, we also allowed ourselves to be socially conditioned and forget the talent we're born with. So how can we recognize that or work through that and to weaken the infinite potential already in us. Then the other side is the responsibility from corporations, organizations, and government. And actually that is a systematic change. You only have one-on-one work, right? And Chen, you would say one hand couldn't make a sound, it take two hands. So how can we have individual, we can have, have a collective organization. We come together and to initiate this radical transformation

Matt Perez:

Community is important.

Sissi Wang:

100%.

Matt Perez:

Okay. either I'm Chinese or you're Cuban. So that's an interesting point of view. The thing I warn you that to begin lookout for is that the system that we live in now, which we call the fiat system, I told you too, that do it. The fiat system is very, very good at keeping things within his bones. I agree with you that it is not an opposition, it's not a revolution. I lived through one revolution once enough. And it just brings different set of characters. You know, it, but they're, they want to, they want to stay within the system. We're the bosses now, not you, because we had the guns, not you. And, and so anyways, it's an evolution. We can, the existence system can keep going. Mm-Hmm. But we're trying to create it an alternative. Yeah. So people don't come to the end of the world and they go, oh, I got to have lots of master's, now I got to do this. I, I get this center or part participation. And that's not that, that, that is back into the fiat system.

Sissi Wang:

Yes. I think in large, if you think how human history have evolved, right? So we have tried all kinds of governing systems from a tribalism to federalism to capitalism. And, you know, different parts of the world have a communism. And so it's not one better than another, it's just a situational, it's in that situation, that period of time would have worked for a particular group of people in large society or organizations. And now the interesting fact, which we did not have this much material abundance in the past, and now we do. So create different accessibility and also technology creating enablement. And you, you, it's a TriFactor. Adding together is an accelerate consciousness awakening. Yes. In the accelerated pace. The things happening fast. And this is where we really calling for leaders, right? So this is not like I'm going to sleep on it for a year, I'm going to do something. This is now time is now, change is now,

Matt Perez:

How do you define leaders?

Sissi Wang:

Say that again, Matt.

Matt Perez:

How, how do you define leaders?

Sissi Wang:

Leaders? I think leader is a light growing grow. Glow within. So leader is not someone I see has a power leader is someone called to service. Ah. So for example, leader is someone on the side of the street, they see a garbage bin till over and without anybody watching, they will lift the garbage bin and someone will pick a trash on the street and someone do things for others. No matter, big or small. That is a leader for me,

Matt Perez:

That's the leader because it calls other people to the same thing.

Sissi Wang:

If we all, if we all can do that, if each us on this planet, we can do that. This world will be looking very,

Matt Perez:

We agree on a lot of things. And actually Taiwan is a good, is you're from Taiwan, right?

Sissi Wang:

No, China.

Matt Perez:

Oh, you're from China. You're the, you were in the dictatorship. Now you're in not, well, you know, less, less drastic dictatorship, but governances government is dictation instance. But it allows you to more. And you know, and in the PRC you'd be in jail somewhere. And but here you're, you're welcome to experiment, which is a big part of what we do. Also, we we're recording, right? Yep. Okay. I thought we were I thought we were still in the pre in the background and thinking this will be good for the recording anyways.

Sissi Wang:

It's okay. Keep it rock, keep it rock. Keep it authentic, right? That's what our audience wanted. And that's what I wanted.

Matt Perez:

Yeah. And, and, and I think you're a very good example of having a sort, all the bad messages you lift through. Same thing with live in Cuba. It's, it's a bad, bad development of revolution. Revolution. Just put this guy Xi Jang in power and, and whatever he says goes. And that's not good. The, the ability is to let the community define what the community wants, what community needs, because only the community does. And it comes from people. And I, I want this, oh, that's very similar to that. And it'll build us up. So but we'll learn from each other. And that's the thing that you just expressed. I'm really, I'm really glad to see somebody your age realizing that. So

Matt Perez:

I think, you know, allow me to comment is I know what I know, I know what I don't know. I don't know what I don't know. So for anything that is at such a high political realm, it's not something I have enough knowledge to comment. And I have been, feel very blessed grow being China with the deep culture and also the prosperity Chinese government have brought to society uplifting about 60 to 80 million people out of poverty every year. And I think that's something so extraordinary in terms of leadership styles. And I really can't comment as much. cause I have left China about 10 years in total now. And because I've lived in San Francisco for three years. But what I would say is the governance or borders is a social construct, is a narrative I have created. Long time for a very long time. And humans, the way how we bound how collaborative is through collective shared narratives. So the interesting, you can create one narrative. You could also create a narrow narrative. So in a sense, challenge, what's the perception of reality? And that, that in the sense you're empowered, right? So now we're creating a radical organization itself is a narrative. And then that narrative that we're purpose or calling is to making sure human potential fully unleashed. But something interesting in that narrative is we are innately, biologically designed to explore. And without that innate biological design, we would not be where we're today. We're probably still a tribe called in Africa, somewhere in Savannah hunting zebras. And now in today with so much abundance, I think that is calling to something in nature. And we, we are so disconnected with nature human beings by individual and organizations, so as well. And now you can see organizations starting to be looking, you know, intangible terms and sustainability practices, right? And corp. And we're started raising the nature into an equivalent state to say, okay, we're better to coexist with nature, not just to take it what nature offers and never replan it.

Matt Perez:

So, so I, I'll move away from the leadership language and I'll move to your language because you're, you're saying very succinctly, you are, you're expressing what we are trying to get across. Exactly. Which is that human nature is a driver of it all. We want to try different things. One experiment and, you know whatever, what do we have? Democracy or whatever we have here. It's, it's pushing you to know productivity and make money for me and do this and do that. It's coming from the top and it should come from the community. So very wise, very, very wise.

Jose Leal:

I would add it, it comes from inside. To your point. Yes. And, and inside is, and all of us is the same thing.

Sissi Wang:

It is the same thing.

Jose Leal:

We are all life. We're not separate from nature. We are nature, really. And, and because we are nature, because we've we can recognize that today in a way that I think we couldn't recognize as clearly in the past. Though some traditions did, it's not to say that none did, but globally that that part of us has not been really well understood. And I think today our understanding of that and the fact that, as you pointed out AI and the abundance of, of both energy and food and everything else, is changing our ability to see what we can see when we have the time to do that.

Sissi Wang:

That's right.

Jose Leal:

And when our grandparents had to work, there was no choice. There was no other way of doing it. Their work had to be whatever somebody else said their work was. And, and that's the way it was. And if I live in a small village and there's a guy who's giving me a job, I'm grateful. And now we see, wait a minute, I could do something myself. I could do something different. I could do something that's better than what we have. And I think what's emerging, a as you very, very well said what is evolving is a new way of us being alive. Not just a new way of us working, but in a new way of us being alive. Which recognizes that those things you said early on about being an explorer. About being you know, wanting things to be fair and, and just and about having fun.

Sissi Wang:

That's right, you got to have fun,

Jose Leal:

Then those things are innate to us. And we can only do those things in an environment that we participate in, that we feel comfortable in, that we feel safe in. And when we live in an environment that doesn't have all that then we're stuck back in that space. So giving ourselves the freedom to express those parts of ourselves in a work environment, which is where we spend most of our time. Right? It's with our colleagues and in, in modern corporations, not to be say, you know, they're evil and we're not because we've created them. So they, they didn't come out of nowhere. We created the corporation and we created all of the systems that we currently live in. So my, my question to you is, how do we disrupt this hierarchy? Because that's the topic for today. What is it that you think is the way to disrupt this hierarchy that we've, we've just described as something that constrains us in our lives.

Sissi Wang:

There are a few angles we can go about this. Something more obvious when you're looking at a hierarchy, how the decision being made is decision made on the top of the pyramids, right. And trickle down and throughout the pyramids and their operations to get things done fulfilling the, the corporate objective. And a one simple way to disrupt it. I call this co-creation, which is collective intelligence. When in fact it's happening already. A lot of big HR software vendors like Workday, sap and starting to develop that internal talent marketplace and allow people to upload their skills, their desires, their ideas, and organizations starting to harvest those intelligence or existing within their walls. cause In the past, this is all exported or exited from the organization cause it's rather linear model and now become much more fluid and a much more collaborative. So that is already existing in different places. And a second part I see is just like you said, that when humans alive and there's a purpose within it, right? We wanted to activate the aliveness for organization. And so our organization have a purpose, have a calling, and that make things very different. I believe all human beings have a heroic cause in all of us, as is, is a seed of waiting to be awakened. And so when organization have a massive transformative purpose, it ly can align with a heroic seed the inside of us. So that is energetic alignment and then empowered with technology and governance. And that's where we can disrupt organization as well. The third, I would say it's really within the cultural element within organization. So, and this is the, this part, it's more subtle and, but have a bigger impact. And when I see, you know, for example, now we talk about in corporate world, like diversity, equity, inclusion, it sounds very fancy, right? And then you ask people, break that down for me. And I, you, you know, you have millions of, of explanations. But I did, someone explains beautifully, I read this code to say, diversity is whether you'll be invited to a party. Inclusion is whether you'll be invited to a dance. And so how can we not making DEI this fancy term and we invite di consultant and coming into our organization to do some initiative at the, probably last for six months and forget all about it. And actually examine the, the cultural roots that diversity from race, gender, nationality, just the, you know, the iceberg on tip of the iceberg. And beneath it, it's the individuality we all hold within ourselves. The unique identity, unique and dream and desires we hold. And how can we create a collaborative space using technology to harvest all of that. And the fourth, I would say dimension is how can we break wall, break the walls, traditional walls of organizations, organization, oftentimes corporations that compete with each other, right? Because, you know, obviously we have bottom lines have to meet during covid, something happened. It's reexamining our organization still, you know, fulfilling its corporate objective. At the same time breaking the walls. Operating is in China. And few retail chains have to close the operations cause nobody's visiting stores. And they starting to collaborating with other companies who are rising talent. cause They're, the industry just didn't get impacted the route that they peaked. So they transport all their talent into a few other companies and nobody get lost and everybody get taken care of. So there is a mask of fluidity that we haven't even considered. cause There's just always been competition. Competition. So in larger scale, how can we bring co-creation? And the fifth element I would say is how can we bring spirituality into the corporate world? cause In corporate world, we'll often think that something so Hoo something, so, guru, something. Oh my God, you're going to meditate on top him alliance. Just way not my feeding kids and buying groceries and, you know, feeding car gas and in fact in spirituality is empowers you to have alignment to a likeness that is meditating and that is journaling. Right? And something so easy, simple. And how we transform the leadership's mentality through spirituality, setting the foundation for organization. And that will creating profound change. So I would say those five simple aspect is easy to implement will make a big difference.

Jose Leal:

And the last one. Yeah. Well, nothing's easy, nothing's easy. But  what you've just described, the, the, especially the fifth item there about spirituality, which there's many ways to describe spirituality. I like to think of spirituality is my ability to recognize myself, to be myself, to be in touch with myself. Therefore in touch with life because that's what I am. And so I think part of what we've been trying to do is, as you said it earlier, it's all about the narrative. It's all about the story. That's right. And, and those five things, if we can bring them together with the understanding that, that there is a new lens with which we can look at ourselves. That's right. And that, that new lens brings to us a new way of thinking, a new way of seeing what an organization can be and how we need to be treated within that type of environment. That foundational, and that's the reason we call it radical. It it goes to the root of who we are, but it's also a fundamental change. That foundational view of, of ourselves and us in communion, right. As a community. Changes how we see the, the role of an organization and everything that you've described can fall from that narrative.

Sissi Wang:

Yeah.

Jose Leal:

Now, we're no longer making decisions at the top because we know that the second one person is making decisions. A whole bunch of other people are going to be unhappy.

Sissi Wang:

Cause we all have rebel in us.

Jose Leal:

Right. And so how do we participate in decision making? How do we participate in deciding what happens because we are the ones that are going to make it happen. And, and so that part of, of this conversation, I think your point about evolution and narrative and the five points you've just mentioned. As part of the narrative. M is really what we're in, in the business of doing, if you want to call it that. Is trying to figure out what is that narrative? I would love to have you participate in this because it, it sounds like you really not only understand what is happening but understand what needs to happen. And, and certainly that's part of the conversation that we've been having here at Radical. And, and one of the things you, we are doing here on the, on the private chat is talking about radical world, which is, is the idea that we're, we're going to be trying to improve our message, if you will, our narrative to speak more clearly about what we want to see. And that radical really is about attaining a radical world. and living in the world where we all live our own desires. live our own, as you said spiritual selves.

Sissi Wang:

Higher self.

Jose Leal:

Higher selves.

Sissi Wang:

The higher self. Yeah.

Jose Leal:

I like to call it a radical purpose that we all have, right. As individuals. Yeah. so does that, I contradict anything that you've, you've just said, or does that feel.

Sissi Wang:

I think you actually summarized very nicely, Jose. I would if I can add anything, I would say at the narrative is how can we creating context around, we're doing so individual level, everybody wanted to be empowered. Correct. want to feel they are in their power. But in fact, we we're running script in our head thinking we're disempowered. So we'll often become a victim of our environment, rather creator of our environment. Make sense? And if for corporations the same, right. Corporation is see narrative. This is, oh, we, common is bad. We have layoff people. Right. Competition is fierce. So we have a profit driven that is narrative. The corporation is a victim of the society economy. Rather say we are the creator of economy or creator of a narrative. And so that is a disempowering position versus empowerment position. I think radical or what're up to, in, in overall is how can I empowering people to be self-empowered? cause When you're self-empowered, it's, it's this wide spreading snowball effect. And then one thing lights another and become a movement. And that's what I truly want to see. And the people empower themselves, change the narrative in their head that everything flows.

Matt Perez:

The, the way I would say it is that fish and embedded in water, so trying to talk to fish about water, they go wool water, they just don't see it. Right. And we're embedded in our stories. You're very correct about that. And so when we try to talk to them about narratives and stories and stuff like that, they go leaves. Right? because they're in that, you're talking about something that's natural and there's nothing natural about it. It's just made up over thousands of years. And so that's why I asked, I'm going to ask it again. What, how do you define a leader? And if it's something with the title, I don't call that a leader that calls, I call that a boss. If it's someone that, that is picking garbage from the street or doing something that somebody else can ate without any permission, without anything, that's the leader. So, which one of those two is, is your definition of leadership title or being?

Sissi Wang:

I think, I think for me is I have mentioned earlier calls, right? So I, I think a leader is something internal is a drive you wanted to make a difference. For others, it's a drive to make difference.

Matt Perez:

So, the impact that it has on the committee is the, the I do it. Somebody follows me, somebody follows me, somebody follows them. And like, that is/

Sissi Wang:

A contribution without attachment.

Matt Perez:

Exactly. And we'll get a community. So no titles are involved. Good. You passed.

Sissi Wang:

I answered the question earlier already. Yeah,

Matt Perez:

Yeah. I know you did. But I wanted to ask you again. In this context, because it seemed to me that you're, you know, Jose is, is more polished and stuff like that. I'm not polished. You, you kept saying the corporation. The corporation, the corporation. And I started leaning back thinking title, title, titles, hierarchy, hierarchies, you know and, and that's not but that's not what you just expressed. So that's

Sissi Wang:

Good. No, I think I, the context I'm providing is, it's not an opposition, it's not a revolution, it's a evolution. So when you consider evolution, evolution is standing on something. So evolution is based on wisdom or has already created. Right. And carry on that wisdom and the further evolve, right? So it's not disrupt, it's evolving on top of it. So in Chinese, we see standing on the shoulder of giants. And there, there, there's an old saying. And I think corporation has served its purpose and to provide mature abundance. And now we're evolving into a new paradigm. And we want them to come along and we want empower them to come along because we drive the world still employed by corporations. And so how can we initiate a radical change that is less disruptive? Right? Yeah. And that is actually considerate holistic wellbeing. cause Oftentimes revolution is costly. And when we think of radical, when we think about the consequences of radical cause in a universe of karma, everything has its counter effect, right? So the love universe. So how can we initiate change and thinking what is the best way to change that all stakeholders are involved and willingly and co-create as a community. And in fact, this is happening all of the world already. And I think this tort of light and so bright, and now we can see the possibility. And like you two, right? Spending years of your background and your experience and building this business and writing the book and spreading the words. And that's just beautiful.

Matt Perez:

Yeah. And but what do you say that, that the people are getting? And some that's same feeling I get. Okay, I'm not challenging you in that way, but what do you see? What is the leadership that people are thinking that we have to it it. I, I still don't see that. I see a few of us speaking to the willingness with our, you know, closed door and all that stuff. And on, on top of the mountain, which is the wrong way to be. The wrong place to be. And, and, and we're still, people say, yeah, yeah, that's, that sounds very good. That sounds very, how do I make money at the end? It's always, how do I make money? And in, in, in more Jose like ways and in gentle ways. So, but what are you seeing? What, what do you see as leadership in that?

Sissi Wang:

I think leadership, it, it's a vast topic. I'm trying to think what exactly you are asking here.

Matt Perez:

What I'm asking exactly is who, who do we follow? Is there anybody.

Sissi Wang:

Who do we follow?

Matt Perez:

Yeah. Who, is there anybody out there you say follow, follow her. And, and I'm, I'm saying her because I'm thinking, thinking that you were from Taiwan.

Sissi Wang:

Not Taiwan, China.

Matt Perez:

No, I know, I know you are from China, but I'm saying originally thinking that you were from there, the, there was a lady there that during the pandemic was the leader. You, you want to imitate her, and then she disappeared. I don't know what happened. And there, there were people in Google that were inspiring, and you wanted to follow, and they disappeared. So I, I label that as fiat protecting itself by taking the people are to aside our, our primary goal. And but who do you see that is a leader that you can follow that.

Sissi Wang:

I was in Nelson Mandela for me is, is a leader I truly respect, Gandhi. Is a leader I truly respect. Yeah. Those are great human beings. That contribution without attachment, a level of forgiveness they have, I think is beyond ordinary human could persist. And that for me is ascension. That for me is really combined, connected to a divine source. I, I, I think when we, when we're looking at leaders, current leadership, sometimes kind of egocentric driven as well. cause When we see in service, we're still expecting some sort of title, our outcome of, you know, money attached to it. And Gandhi and Nelson Mandela is, is somewhat respect. cause They just, that is behind. That's not nothing. That's, that doesn't motivate them. Okay. And then their pure purpose is to embrace the masses, right? At scale. Scale. And I think a, a really great leader for me is if you really have to think about, you know, and, and the, the impact of the, of the leaders and how can you consider humanity as a whole, is totality part of it. But leadership is, it's existing in all of us. But when you're taking on totality, when you're taking on scale, it, it requires very different competency and, and different lens and different skillset.

Matt Perez:

So you're still with, I'm reaching too far by, by looking for a unitary leader. And instead we're going to find many areas where there be leadership in different areas. And that's very radical. So, so be careful. And because yeah, decentralization is a big basis of what we do and more from a community perspective. And this thing of looking for the Arnold Schwarzenegger of every listeners is, is the past. And I'm, I'm familiar with the past. I'm 73 years old. And we need to look for leaders in different areas. You're right. And then unite them in some way to, to, to, to reassure 'me that they're talking about the same thing. Because what happens now is you have leaders in climate exchange, there's a lot of them. And they think it, they, they have their costs, and they have their cost. Everybody has their cost, but it, it's all rude. The same idea, exploitation, stuff like that.

Sissi Wang:

I think the, the, sorry I was jumping into there. I think the point we're trying to come across is when we talk about following leaders, like who to follow Yeah. In the sense that we outsource our power. Right. And who can light the way? Who can point the direction. And so, I, and if you,

Matt Perez:

That's not, that's not, I was referring to leaders. I was afraid to, the guys who pick us picks up the garbage, makes it okay for the next guy to come pick us, pick up a different piece of garbage. I'm talking about those two leaders.

Sissi Wang:

That's right, the day-to-day heroes. Mm-Hmm.

Matt Perez:

Yeah. It is the same guy who goes and punches that picks up the garbage, goes and punches somebody out of the blue. That's not, it is not a leadership, but he picked up our coverage.

Sissi Wang:

That's right. There is a concept. I would love to maybe talk another time. And I, I find that's a, a fundamental quality to be a leader. It's a way of being from ing from Buddhism in Chinese philosophy called J it's called a noble man. And it's not particularly to men or women, but it's

Matt Perez:

Yeah. Can you type that in the.

Sissi Wang:

Oh, yes. I don't think I can type Chinese here, but I would type the spelling here. So I have five principles to guiding individual's will the way of being and respect kindness, a lot of those way of being a principle. It's very intertwined with different religions. You hear pretty much about the same thing. And I, it's, it's this common foundation. And to be a good human being. And I think that that is the foundation of being a leader and have a higher moral standard of holding yourself and to that high moral standard. And if all leaders right in, in different capacity can have that foundation. I think that will make huge difference for in this context organizations. Right. And so it's not ego driven by ego and fear, scarcity. It's driven by service abundance. And that's different mentality. And then when your way of being is shifting the energy, your immediate is shifting and, and then that is culture. Because Culture is like air. You breathe, right? And you walk into the space and you, you, your body have intelligence able to tell. And is this leader's ego driven or is leader actually is interested in you, genuinely interested in you? And that it's a subtle difference. We all can tell, but our mind some tricks us like, oh, that's the way it is. I should not be a rebel. I should not challenge this. And then you, you know, sit in that environment for three years until you see this flower started to wither away and that maybe it's not the right environment.

Jose Leal:

And you start to think that the right environment is one that's going to pay me more. Because we don't associate that discomfort with the, the story, with the, the force that's in the environment. We associate it with that bad boss who's not paying me enough. That bad company who's not giving me enough. Because that's the language we've been taught. Yes. Rather than saying, what's making me unhappy isn't the fact that I'm not getting paid enough, what's making me unhappy is that I don't have the ability to express myself. Sufficiently fully.

Matt Perez:

What's making me happy is that I don't collect any of the wealth that I created except a little bit. So I create a lot of wealth and I get this much.

Sissi Wang:

Yeah. I think the profit, right? Your organization, core profit, HR terms and composition benefits or total rewards it's still existing in the old paradigm. And so now with a Web3, a Dow organization, decentralization, we're starting to reinventing and how people get rewarded. cause Normally we have performance reviews and salary increase is a once a year event. Isn't that right?

Jose Leal:

And not only that, it's somebody else's decision.

Sissi Wang:

Yeah, exactly. So absurd, right? I work hard for a whole year and I get increased by end of the year. And, and now how can we make that instant? How can I gamify performance? Right? And just like you said, play. cause They have to fill, everybody want to explore, experiment. Everybody have a, cause it's a warrior. Everybody want to have fun. So, so simple principle, how can we embed in that, in the design of exponential conscious organization and then fulfill the fundamental needs of be a human being? And beyond that, as you know, nor noble causes more scale, different skill competencies that can be trained. And we all have the inner child in all of us. But once we enter corporations, most of us forget about how to play.

Jose Leal:

Well, we forget how to play most of us when we enter school and remind in corporation

Sissi Wang:

In school, and then the corporations and, you know, be a loyal citizen of society, be a moral husband in, in the family. And so many responsibilities wrapped us around and we're so suppressed. Yeah. And then that inner child is crying and it causes so much mental distress and so much anxiety for human beings. And so, and you put this type of human being, even in a thriving system, the habitual pattern, biological imprint is still there. 'cause They still carry the trauma and from where it used to be. And they used to behave. And so that's what I say, the individual work as a human being to be fully unleashed alive and connect with spiritual self. It's just as equivalent as important on the collective base.

Jose Leal:

And it's the most important.

Sissi Wang:

It is the most important.

Jose Leal:

Because it all starts with me. Yes. In order for me to be a part of the community, I need to express myself legitimately. And if I'm not doing that, then, then the community doesn't know how to interact with me because I'm being something other than what I really am.

Sissi Wang:

Yes. 100%. I really love this analogy. The beehive, right? So you look at the, the design nature, the, the beehive is this like equivalent structure. And they have a study, I'm not sure you two have heard, you know, honey as a, a product have a higher healing effect because all the bees, they're whether wings the vibrant, the same frequency is creating a resonance and that resonance and seas into one producing honey. And that's type of resonance I really want to see for organization. And when we are connected, alive, and a purpose in true alignment with organization purpose, that is superpower. That is a world changing superpower there.

Matt Perez:

And I think that's community.

Sissi Wang:

It is 100%.

Matt Perez:

That bee honey, I drink a lot of beer, honey for different reasons. But it is for people, it is community because it goes both, both ways. Individuals which transform. But the, the community has to transform as well. And the committee has to validate, not empower, but validate. that behavior. And you should have the ability to teach of us share the ability to find another committee. If, if this committee wants to pick only pink garbage. And, and this one wants to pick any garbage, they'll go with that one. But if I'm forced to work with this guy, I'll being happy, even though I'd like to pick up birds. Yeah. Being happy. So they both have to do this and come up

Sissi Wang:

As like a bucket principle. There is a question. When I was small, you know, he wrote a book, exponential organization, right? So I'm a part of the open exo community. We'll talk about what's the future of organization look like. I think we're both agree, including the, the, you know, people in the room that it's really not exponential organizations, exponential community that Yes. The, the, the, you have few more people like a core Right. Of, of the team. And that you, and it's kind of like a web spreading out. And it becomes swarm. It becomes a swarm way of getting down. So now you don't have a corporation of pyramids, long tenure, 25 years. And I think the future is much more fluid and people will come together for a cause Right. Quickly come together for a cause like skunk work or like a task squad want to task completed and then disperse, and then then they self-assemble themself into a different task is, and I think that's really how nature works. Because it's free will, right? Universe, grant free will I free will choose. And when, where, who, and I work with.

Matt Perez:

So I don't know if I'm stepping on your toes now, because the first thing that we did in what it, what were they called? It, called cross teams or something. Teams. It was when something got, we had a crisis and how do you fix this crisis? I mean, that guy and that guy and that guy and that guy, and we all come together, the one thing that we kept out of the group was HR. HR wanted to come with no, no, no mag. This was some microsystem many years ago. Mag wants skip that. I don't care. Leave. And with that once, and we never repeat it again. And it's when people have the choice to belong to a community, yeah. At least people out there don't belong. That don't, that's where the, the foreign object coming to the community is like, you know, have the, the ability to, to throw out the, and, and well, do you want me to talk about China? But anyways the, that ability to, to eject the fourth object in some way or form without killing 'em, without sending jail, without any of those things. But to say, we're not, we're not part of you. You're not part of us. You're not part of, we're not part of you. And it sounds like you read the book,

Sissi Wang:

Which book?

Matt Perez:

Ah, she hasn't read the book.

Jose Leal:

Radical Companies.

Matt Perez:

We have three books out. The first ones radical companies. Oh,

Sissi Wang:

No, I have not. I have not.

Matt Perez:

I suggest section two of the book. Section one is about building our credibility before you get that licked, you don't need that. And but section two is won't come to the what is the alternatives. And we keep calling the alternatives because it's not a revolution. It isn't supplant. The current system is parallel, and it's going to start down here where you don't see the hand and eventually you see the finger. And, and, but this, this, this culture, which you call fiat, I don't, I don't believe that it has a lot of room to grow. It, it, it is going to grow and all that stuff, but I don't think you have much room to grow. There are two or three countries in the world that are sticking to the, we, we force these people and we seem to work in gaps if, if they don't, and China's no longer among the group. There's North Korea, Cuba, maybe Nicaragua, but but they, they're shrinking and everybody is expanding at different rates. So the problem is they have the guns and we'll see. But anyways

Jose Leal:

So it's, it's been 54 minutes almost now. Which is which is incredible because it's been so quick. Really have enjoyed this conversation. Sissi. Thank you.Thank you for, thank you for the work you're doing because it sounds very much like what we have been doing as well. And love your energy, love your succinctness and your clarity in, in, in what you describe. And that's very helpful. I think for us, as it is for, for everyone who's trying to see how they play their role in being a leader in this space using our collective definition of leader. And thank you also for the time. cause Typically this is a, a half hour conversation and we've, we've made it almost an hour. So thank you so much. As I warned you, if it was really good, we'd enjoy it and we'd keep going. So we did.

Sissi Wang:

That was what I have hoped for.

Matt Perez:

Good. It'd be really interesting to have her back after she wrote one of the books.

Jose Leal:

Yeah. And, and this is a good time to announce. Do you want to make the announcement? Should I?

Matt Perez:

Jose's going to make the announcement.

Jose Leal:

Okay. So this is a new year. We had not made the announcement before the, the year changed, but as of next week, we will be changing the name of the podcast to Radical World. rHatchery live will be subsumed into the, the New Radical World, which is a new website. It's a rebranding that brings together a bunch of work that we and the broader community have been doing including things like rHatchery live, radical companies, the book radical Purpose the Radical Purpose Work, and society 2045. All of that work is being brought together under Radical World and the podcast, and soon to be announced other events and courses and so forth will be part of, of this new bringing together of, of radical into a radical world. And so, looking forward to a different conversation, but a continuing of this conversation and an evolution of this conversation. And I, I think Matt is right. It would be really interesting to bring you back Sissi at some point to talk more about it in. So thinking about the radical world, and as you said, I, I'm going to sort of misquote you a little bit that what we want to do is give permission for people not to empower them, but for them to be empowered. By having permission to be empowered. And that's really what radical world would like to do. And that's our mission moving forward. And would love to have you part of that mission and part of that conversation. Thank you again for a wonderful conversation and look forward to seeing you more in 2024.

Sissi Wang:

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on this show. I, I enjoyed our conversation as well learn, you know, from both of you, from the years of work and creating this movement, I find this very inspiring. And I haven't really talked a lot about, you know, the startup I was trying to do that is truly radical. But I, we'll leave that to.

Jose Leal:

We'll leave that for next time.

Matt Perez:

Just bring it back next week. Talk about.

Jose Leal:

Alrighty. Thank you.

Sissi Wang:

Thank you, Jose. Thank you, Matt.