Remembering and Reimagining

Matt Perez:

Boom, we're here. So we have Jose Leal and Garry Turner. And we we're going to just talk for half hour. And Garry has a very interesting approach to business and how it should be and stuff like that. And particularly reimagining how the business runs. So, Garry, when, when tell us about it.

Garry Turner:

Yeah. Thanks, Matt. Thanks, Jose. Appreciate the invitation. So yeah, radicality really, which is a very in tune with your platform. Yeah. it's really, it really is, is my attempt as somebody that works within the most harmful of sectors, within chemicals, within the extractive industries. It's my way of trying to invite those senior leaders, those major stakeholders in the old world that we're seeing collapse, to get them to try and really step into reimagining for themselves and also their businesses. What could more generative, inclusive, less harmful business look and feel like? And really that's what the Radicality ecosystem is all about, is trying to bring together a range of transformational partners to help hold space, to help coach, guide and create safe and brave spaces for people to imagine for themselves.

Jose Leal:

Garry, you just mentioned collapse.

Matt Perez:

Yeah, same.

Jose Leal:

I was wondering Yeah, I was wondering we see it. Do they see it?

Garry Turner:

It's a beautiful question, Jose. I would say I'd, I'd flipped the question a little bit and not just so, so let me answer the question.

Jose Leal:

It wasn't so beautiful after Raleigh.

Garry Turner:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I think what's really intriguing, right, is that there are, again, back to the thing about feeling, and we, before we went live, we were speaking about sometimes we can't always communicate what we're trying to say with words. And what I'm seeing, particularly within the extractive industries, and I've been there, I, you know, I've done a lot of inner work the last decade, but I can see people that know something's not right. And it's probably happening below the neck, in their gut, in their heart, somewhere else in their body, but they suppress it in favor of going after the number, going after the next m and a acquisition, going after all the stuff they've been told is the way to do this. So I don't think they're actually unaware, Jose, I don't think they're ready to reckon with the head, heart, gut conversation that needs to be had.

Jose Leal:

They're not conscious of it, but it's there.

Garry Turner:

Yes. I would say that's a fair summary.

Matt Perez:

Well, and, and that's very close to what we say about radical, that people know there's something wrong. But they don't, they they go for the money, basically. So you said you had a lot of experience with with the industry. What, what have you done?

Garry Turner:

Yeah, so, so actually I'm, I'm a little bit of a double agent actually. So whilst I'm building radicality, I actually still work within a four and a half billion turnover chemical company. So I'm actually inside of the belly of the beast whilst trying to disrupt it. So I'm basically trying to disrupt it from the inside and from the outside. Yeah. Okay. And that gives me a very unique perspective as someone that understands transforming of humans, understands where we are and where we think we may be going. So I'm sort of bit of almost like a bridge builder in a way. And part of my role, and I'm not, I'm not hone this yet 'cause it's about words, is, you know, what are the words that we need to help people step into more discomfort into that uncomfortable space, which is real growth, real transformation. Right? And I think that's what you are working on at Radical World is what I'm working on in Radicality is just this, you know, what are the words, what are the experiences people need to have to let them drop those masks of fear or that invulnerability that ego, etcetera.

Matt Perez:

Yeah. Yeah. I, we think that businesses, traditional business of today are business hassle. In other words, they, they, they want everything fixed. They don't want anything to change because they, they wouldn't know what to do. But and that's business hassle. I mean, the, the, the great thing about Ford, a lot of bad things, but the great thing about Ford is that he had this other way of doing things, which was very different than way it was before, and it made a huge number. So I think you can do more honest to goodness business with change then trying to avoid change, trying to suppress that. So,

Garry Turner:

But I, I think that, that at the same time that that change that you just mentioned, it's, it's a, it's a very different kind of business, right? It's not the same. Let's go get the numbers kind of business, right?

Matt Perez:

Yeah. It's different. It's different.

Jose Leal:

It, we might grow in different ways. We might. And you know, we, we've had these conversations many times and with people like yourself, Garry, where the question is sort of, you know, we talk about reimagining are we reimagining all of work or are we reimagining business because there's a difference between these two things?

Matt Perez:

Yeah, that's true.

Garry Turner:

Oh, it's what, what, what a beautifully put question. Now I'd probably go even further. You know, we are looking at, so we come back to the point of collapse, right? We've only got to look at global supply chains. I'm part of day in, day out, you know, getting food onto our tables has become a lot harder. Getting material within 40 days doesn't happen anymore. It's now 80 days to get material shipped across the ocean. Wow. So we are looking, we are looking at full systems collapse. We're not just talking about business falling down. You know, we've got to remember as well, and I've got to honor someone in my network called Heather Luna, who does a lot of work around supremacy culture patterns for, for those that are interested to go there. She said the global south have been under collapse for 600 years. And when we think about that, it really puts it in sharp perspective that actually we are only now starting to feel this acutely in our supply chains, in our workplaces, in our bodies. Whereas, you know, the global south have been experiencing in this for 500 years. So we are at a real liminal space, but an opportunity as well, a real opportunity to reimagine and go, right, what does healthy generative inclusive look and feel like? And it doesn't look like hitting the next quarter's numbers, right? It looks like making sure that we are doing things for the world for work, but also for our communities. And we're making sure we're reducing harm in our supply chains. You know, it's a really big macro topic, but actually we can all play a part in it from where we're sitting right here in the moment. And I think there's been a lot of, I call it learnt helplessness over the years. We've been told you should do it this way, or if you don't do it, this will happen to you rather than actually, what do you think? What's possible for you from where you stand in this very moment? And that's the really generative potential I see.

Jose Leal:

And, and from the perspective of that opportunity to grow, we have built an educational system and a system of work that not only makes us feel that we don't have the autonomy to do anything, but then reinforces it by whenever we stick our heads up, we get it slapped. Right? so, so really it's a really fundamental change that we're talking about here, because if we're back to how we're educated, this isn't just a change in how we work.

Matt Perez:

Yeah.

Jose Leal:

You I didn't know what that meant, meant.

Matt Perez:

Oh, number one, number two, going to a bathroom. Here's something very physical and very much you feel in your body. And instead of saying, excuse me, going out the door, you have to ask for permission. Okay? I go, number one, I should have pee in my pants. And one of my sons was made to pee in his pants. And that's why I'm so, it No, but the, the is is the teacher decided for deciding for you that you have to be, how absurd is that? So the educational system is, is a big part of that.

Jose Leal:

So Garry, how do you reimagine this? Not, not what it will be? Because I think, I think most of us, whether we have drawings like you do about what this looks like or not, most of us who have been thinking about this for some time, we have a sense of where it needs to be. Of where, where the, the delta is between where we are and, and where it needs to be. We have that sense, but we don't always know how the heck do we get there? And so what, what do you see as that reimagining? What's that transition look like for you?

Garry Turner:

I can give you a very practical example for you in your, your community this, this evening. So I ran an experiment without asking for permission, literally 10 days ago. And that permission was to get two colleagues, one Muslim colleague, one white woman into a space co-created, facilitated space to go, right? Y is X organization silent on what's happening in Israel, Gaza. But they were very quick to respond to Russia, Ukraine, what's going on in the thought process, what's happening again, no judgment, no shame, just to say, Hey, look what's going on within the, the leadership psyche. And we had a beautiful 45 minute exploration with a load of data that came out of that conversation, which I'm now going to hand to the CEO of a company on Monday. That's one really real back to the, one of the things to discuss this evening, the today that's stepping into that discomfort that instead of, I could have, which I would would've done a decade ago, have gone, yeah. But if I do that, who am I I upset. And if I hand this to the CEO, which how many lines of management are going to be off with me? You know, instead of that, it was just like, no, this is the right thing to do because I know clearly this is not sustainable. So to answer your question, Jose, every one of us can do what I just described. Nothing is stopping us from within our context. Grab two people, three people, 20 people, have the conversations around what we're all seeing from different contexts and experiences. Build the, build the, you know, build the energy around that, do more experiments. You know, it's really that network effect, but it's going to, I really see these changes. It's going to be bottom up and side in, it's not going to come top down.

Jose Leal:

And, and so let's assume that you do that. My suspicion is that, that what you've just described is kind of what's happening in the UK right now. Not in work, but in society at large. Where people are saying, okay, I'm not happy with these things and I'm going to start raise some ruckus. And we are seeing it here politically right? In in the United States. So I think can, can you.

Matt Perez:

Say, can you say more about the situation in the UK I'm not aware of.

Jose Leal:

Well, there's been some unrest, right? And, and, and that unrest is coming from the population, just people on the streets that are unhappy with the status quo. And lots of it has to do with immigration, lots of it has to do with the state economy and, and all of this kind of stuff, right? And I'm not an expert in that, but it seems to me that whenever you see unrest, it's because people are not comfortable in the situation that they're in, right? That the some needs are not being met. And so I wonder if, if we kind of say to people, Hey, go do what needs to be done, rather than doing what is expected of you by the system. What does that do to a large corporation?

Garry Turner:

It's a really good question. I would assert from the conversations I've had so far since running this experiment, people don't, there's not actually, in my opinion, and I see it within my context I would say people aren't actually sitting around wanting to blow up the system. There's some people that do want to literally an, you know, go anarchy, go go, you know, use a nuclear button on, on business. I'm not, I'm not one of those people when I come, when I talk about radicality, I'm talking about radically re-imagining how we show up, challenging our fears, coming from a place of connection, celebrating difference, leaning into discomfort, you know, everything we, that education system you spoke about. Counter to all of that. Now, there's two things I would describe. So what you described around the unrest in the uk that actually, just, just for context for Matt and for any of your US listeners in particular, the unrest was actually, that came about because three young girls were sadly murdered up in the northwest of England in the UK, but a certain group of people spread a message that that was actually a Muslim person that murdered the three girls. But it wasn't, it was complete fake news. Internet took off and then suddenly we were into riots. So why I wanted to give that framing is I see that what I'm trying to do, and what we're all trying to do here on this call is to bring people together to reimagine, to push and poke against the current system and co-create. What the other example is, is fear-based anarchy and retaliation, because they don't feel they're being invested in, don't feel there's job opportunities, don't feel seen or heard. So it's really important this nuance, right? It can be radical in many different ways. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. But I think what we are all speaking about on this call is how can we radically reimagine and challenge the status quo, but take everyone with us. 'cause We can all see something better at the other end.

Matt Perez:

But by the way, what we mean by radical is going to the root. So it's not radical, I'm going to kill you and I'm going to hang you, kind of thing. But what is the root of the problem? And one thing that we identify really early on is that there's, we live in a system, a lot of people don't like that, but we live in the system and the system called Fiat, and we're thinking of radical as an alternative to fiat. I mean, fiat is going to be around for a long time. But there's got to be an alternative. 'cause Right now in, in the valley here, when companies think of, well, I got to get funding and I got to get this, I got to get that. They're thinking the other model, the fiat model. And and when I say, well, there's another model, it cost you less. It give you more control of everything that you got. And and it's just an alternative. That's all. And what we hope to see is that that grows and this shrinks, but that's a different story. So we're talking about revolution or anything we're going about, we're talking about going to the roots of the problem. And, and, and we miss it a lot of times. And mean, like you said, we fall for fake news because we didn't go and ask anybody what happened here. We, we take it from some guy in the basement somewhere saying, oh, this was a Muslim guy killing three girls. And, you know rather than talking and we're, we're starting from the educational system that Jose talked about the, the system, once it's divided, yes willing, the conquer invented that. And he separated the rich and the poor. And but if it would've lasted a thousand years, it would've ended up in the same place. So so yeah, it is, we can get back together somehow.

Jose Leal:

Well, you, you mentioned Silicon Valley, and, and that reminds me of a story I read this morning. I don't know if Garry, you're familiar with Reid Hoffman, the founder of LinkedIn. He had an interview recently and he was talking about the fact that in 10 years most people will not be working for a company as an employee. That the transition, thanks to AI and the speed of which things are transforming and his idea is that it's going to be more about becoming gig workers and doing multiple kinds of gig work for multiple companies. And to me, that is the scariest thing I could ever imagine, because we're talking about, we're talking about more power to the corporation and actually less power to the individual. And you know, the idea of between that and the getting a, a, a monthly stipend from the government as a fixed income minimum income those two ideas, the the one from Reid Hoffman. And, and that idea to me are scary as heck because that just puts us as at a point of no power at all. Because now if we don't behave, guess what gets pulled away, right? Right. If we're, if we're not good, good little boys, what what gets drawn out? Right? So my question to you, Garry, is seeing those two things as emergent kind of realities that are coming about, certainly some experimentation on both of those fronts, and at least here in the United States, gig work is a huge component now of, of our workforce. So what do you see how, how does that happening or not happening change things for you in, in your idea of, of how to reimagine work?

Garry Turner:

Yeah, so first of all, just to say with both of you, I think it's incredibly terrifying. You know, you also look at even the use of AI, everyone just jumps again, mindlessly onto AI. Sure it's got benefits, but does everybody know that, you know, in Kenya, these workers are getting like less than a dollar a day to basically feed the ai, right? There's, there's all this complexity that sits behind these systems that no one really thinks about. And I think that's part of my answer to the question is I think we've got to slow down. Believe it or not, it's an act of resistance to the current system. It's a radical idea to go slow, not fast. And I think again, it's, it's all going to come back to our own in the end. Our, I I have a a mantra which is change as an inside job. And because I've gone on that journey, I stay on that journey now, you know, no one can actually, apart from throwing you in prison, no one can actually tell any one of us on this call right now to do anything. Not really. We allow other people to tell us to do things. Now, it's not always easy 'cause you're going to salary and you've got bills to pay. But again, that trying to remember, that's, that's why I link reimagining and remembering so closely together, you know, this stuff is innate. This isn't stuff we need to buy off of a shelf or, or buy online from that gig worker, right? Like, there's so much wisdom already within us when we're born yet. So little of that wisdom comes through after we've gone through that education system we spoke about into the world of work, right? We've been dumbed down. So I think, you know, I think we've got to actually resist, and I use the word resistance intentionally. We've got to resist certain aspects of technology being allowed to become normal, quote unquote. Because you're absolutely right. You know, surveillance tech, we've seen it already. We're seeing, seen it with ai, you know, it, we are becoming more and more dehumanized tech for this purpose is great. Tech's a tool, right? You can use it for good things, use for bad things, but at the end of the day, the power within tech, like money in financial services sits in far too few hands, like big corporations, like big banks. And that's what's got to change. That's what we've got to reimagine is what is a more distributed, decentralized system look like for currency, decentralized system for power with workplaces. None of this is new to a lot of your listeners, but our role within that might be quite new. So rather than waiting for someone else to do it, what are we going to do individually and collectively to retake that power back so that we can do something better with it?

Matt Perez:

But first of all, we have to recognize the systems that're Exactly. Because the FIATs systems we call it has been very good, very, very good at corrupting anything that goes against it. So climate change the answer,,

Jose Leal:

Let's turn it into a, a metric around CO2.

Matt Perez:

Yeah, no, we, we we buy, we're planting a thousand trees in Jamaica or whatever, Brazil. And it's the, it's the same thousand trees that is sold to everybody. So there's greenwashing, there's when we talk about discrimination against women, misogyny in general, we bring up the three women. They're in three boars and a they're very successful financially and but they're not, they, they, they're guys with women's clothes on basically. So so yeah, the system is is very adept at, at defending itself, but it doesn't change anything. It just makes it worse and worse. And what I call divisionally call individualization or something. But it's the same thing is, is if we can't remember the metrics and we, they were all in their, in their little pods with wires sticking out of them. That's, that's the direction that we're going. And of everybody, you know, I'm, I'm my own person and this and that and gig workers, it scares outta me, excuse my friends because it is the you don't have anybody to hang out with except you know who your friends are and you cannot take any action. So the action you were talking about that we can take right now, we can take it and, and motivate other people to take it and stuff like that. But we have 10 years he said he's been pretty good at know where direction is going. And he is been very good at getting him wrong. Well, he is not wrong for him because he's made a lot of money out of that. But but insisting on the same system, the same process and, and to be, to be fair to and that's probably all he knows. That's probably all he knows.

Jose Leal:

That's the world we live in here, especially in the valley.

Matt Perez:

That's the world we live in. It's been very progressive, you know, it is given us medicine. I'm carrying a cancer bag or something. I don't know what they call this is a pump. So technology's advancing very quickly. And if you have insurance and if you have this, and if you have that, the other people, they have to go to a valley or somewhere outta here to get the same kind of healthcare. I go 10 minutes on the the street. So he is been very good at pre predicting where that system is going to go. So I would think it's word that, yeah, gig workers, they, they figure out what their value is to the system and they go to split it. And

Garry Turner:

I just got a I just got a, I just got a text message from my cousin to ask what the hell's wrong with us all, all three bald guys.

Jose Leal:

We need a new system.

Jose Leal:

But that leads me to a really good question. Well, I think it's a good question. You, you tell me again. Do, do you think, I mean, those of us, you said you've been at this for a decade. Yeah. Doing the inner work. I'd say probably about the same for myself. Really it's going to be the young people that are going to need to do this. Yes. If, if, if things are going to really change, it's going to be them because we're leaving the industry, whereas they're about to enter or they're just now entering. Have you worked with the latest, the new generations that are entering the workforce and, and what's your sense of, of how willing and able they are to, to take on this responsibility?

Garry Turner:

Oh, it, it is a great question, Jose, because yes, I do have interactions with a subset of, of, and again, bear in mind my context is within a quite traditional industry most of the time. But I do obviously I have a network outside. I would summarize it. My perspective only is that there's a real mix. There's a real mix of, I, I've never seen such an activist cohort, people willing to speak up, chance of status quo. Say, actually no, you, you, you want me in the office five days a week. Who the hell do you think you are? Like, there's a lot, there's definitely a lot more pushback coming from a subset. Equally and, and also equally, there's a subset that are being indoctrinated in the new ways. So it's a little bit like what we saw with the unrest here in the uk. You know, depending on the level of investment, depending on the level of ed, of education, who you surround yourself with. I see the next don't like to say it, but I see the next systemic iteration of this psychological war is going to be with that generation, to be honest. Those that absolutely are driving change. And then those that have been conditioned, you know, they've been handed down the house, the inheritance, whereas so many others have literally got, they couldn't even, you know, their belly got a pot to, to eat out of. So I think it's a very interesting time for us. 'cause I, I, I can't remember a time in my recent history, maybe you guys can add, add into this, where we've seen such a wide gap between the haves and have nots. There's always been a gap. Always. Yes. But the extraction of wealth, for example, in, in the UK alone, the food bank usage of the last decade has gone through the roof. The exponential curve we don't want to see. And at the same time, more and more mons leaving the working classes to the super rich, just look at the number of billionaires on the planet. So every, every, every metric reinforces what I just said. So I just wrap up my response to your question. How is it by saying there's a lot of potential in this cohort, the new generation coming in, I, and I think there's a, a responsibility on us to help reduce harm as best we can whilst they take over. And I don't see that happening enough, to be honest. Is that conscious awareness and Right. What can we do differently as we hand over the batam

Jose Leal:

And what does that look like? What, what, what do you see as the thing that we could do?

Garry Turner:

The, the number one biggest topic is, is, is, is mindset. So what I mean by that is organizational and individual mindset. So I, I imagine back to the theme today, I imagine that I'm actively working on this, is reaching out to, and trying to engage the CEOs, the CHROs, the CFOs of the biggest, most harmful companies on the planet, trying to build relations. Because relationality, as you both know, as we all know, nothing changes without relationality. It's not an individual pursuit, it's a collective pursuit. And it took me a really long time to work that out, to be completely honest and vulnerable. I thought I had to do it all myself, which is why it took so bloody long. And then once I realized it was actually a collective pursuit, things accelerated for me. So I see that's how I see us being able to, our sort of older co cohort should we say is how do we come together to share perspective? You know, we are, we are generally more financially well off. We've generally got less risk inverted comm compared to those younger generations. And I think we should use that privilege to try and have the conversations we haven't had as much over the last decade or two.

Matt Perez:

So how, how would you imagine that happening? Is should we form a company, a bigger company that international or, or should we offer classes? Or how could we go about that?

Garry Turner:

Well, I, I see this as part of that journey, right? This, that we've met each other tonight. You know, you having all these other amazing guests on, so there's this informal network already forming, right? As people get to know each other, they know what their skills are, what they're working on. And I see it being a much more organic process where the more of us that know each other and the more that understand each other's drivers, I then say, actually, when I go into a chemical company in six months time, I'd a really, actually, you want, you want to work on X, let me introduce you to Matt and Jose. I actually think what they're working on could be really helpful. So there's going to be a Trojan horse of a business need, because that's still, we're still in the old world, right? So it's got to be a, okay, what's the ROI, etcetera. So we've got to find a way, we've got to find a way to speak to them. But the ability through this informal network to bring in transformational change, that's where I see it being different. It's not going to be me going in as just Gary going, Hey, I think you should change X. It's going to be, Hey, I want to connect you to these people because I want you to have a relationship with 'em. Like you've got with me. We're not blaming you, we're not telling you that you're a bad person. Right? But we now do realize how mucked up things are. So what do we want to do? And that we gets bigger and bigger and bigger. That's how I see it.

Jose Leal:

Do you see larger organizations being able to change?

Garry Turner:

I'll let you know after Monday when I meet the CEO, because this, this is a really hot topic. Genuinely of course, organizations are people, right? So at the end of the day, do senior leaders that have a lot of power, often unearned just because of status, or Peter principle or whatever. I think people are prepared to change senior leaders. But I think part of what I just described, people are used. We used, we've been, again, we've been told we have to do it on our own. Right? Con, divide and conquer, as you both said earlier, I, I empathize with a lot of these leaders. There might be a load of money, but I guarantee you both, they're absolutely lonely. I can be absolutely .

Jose Leal:

Those people there.

Garry Turner:

And done that most will be lonely. Yeah. So in a sort of funny way, I wouldn't normally say this. I think they need to feel loved. They need to feel part of something. They need to, they need to feel, be in an environment where they can actually feel into their body and know they're not, someone's not going to try and take the job off them or going to try and undercut them or stab them in the back. 'cause That is the old world, right? That's the old fiat world you both spoke about. So it's wholly possible. And it's literally can be clicked at a flick of a switch depending on relationality. Absolutely convinced.

Jose Leal:

I'm looking at Matt's face and, and, and I'm not seeing his convinced there.

Matt Perez:

I'm not, I'm not convinced that it'd be like that. But I'm convinced that they also feel the loneliness and the problems. And, and sometimes, I mean, speaking for my own self, at one point we had to lay off a lot of people from a company, a big company that disappeared. And and I was trying to explain in words that others could understand why, you know, we should allow more time or finding jobs. And this guy turned to me and said, but this, that's not your problem. And at first I was shocked for about two seconds. And then I said, yeah, that's not my problem. 'cause I was in the middle of the system. And so you feel the need, you feel the change, you feel all that stuff, but you're not willing to put your livelihood at risk. You're not willing to put your, your, your kids' private school. Private school. I know it's different, you can hear, but private school is one you pay money for. And and you, you're not willing to risk all that. You're, you suppress that in order for the money to keep flowing. So, and this my own experience, so I don't know maybe I'm, I'm out, I'm out in the, I'm out of loop somewhere, there, but I don't think so. No. I think a lot of people are going around suppressing their emotions and exchange for the money. So we're slaves to the monetary systems.

Jose Leal:

And, and this is why I, I asked the question, Garry, because my sense is, as much as we can change a CEO's mind not we can change it, but that, that he's primed for it or she's primed for it. And, and given the opportunity with rational relationality, as you said being able to, to, to have that sense of comfort. Like there's people around me that are going to allow me to act on these feelings that I have and, and to do those things, then you've got the board, then you've got the investors, then you've got the market then you've got actual employees that are like, no, just don't change anything. Just pay me because you screw, you muck this up. My, you know, 10 year, 15, 20 year career is going to go upended. Like there is so much momentum in the system. That any one group, small group of individuals trying to make changes to the system, I can't see that happening. I, I can't see that happening at a sufficient scale to, to do what needs to happen.

Garry Turner:

I think it's an absolutely fair challenge. And I'm not in utopia. I don't disagree with, I review from that context. We are in Western collapse back to the way we started, like, you know, we, we can't turn this around. We're not going to stop. We can't put the handbrake on to then introduce something new. There's going to be something come from the embers, whatever's left. Oh. However, how, however, I will add you, you both know Gary Ridgewell, I'm sure ex CEO of WD 40. Yeah. There's a great story. When I first met him, Jose over in San Diego back in 2018, I asked him a very similar question. So it linked to what you just asserted, right? I was, I was like, Gary, how do you keep the investors at bay? You've got this great, you know, you've got, you've got this great culture, high, high engagement, people love the company, but you're still part of the old system. Yeah. You've still got short termist investors. And he shared with me that moment, Jose, and it's something that any CEO can do. And that's why I do that tomorrow. Oh, okay. They can, any CEO can do what I'm about to share. 'cause Gary SCH did it. Any CEO can turn around and Gary Ridge did this and said, we appreciate any investment, thank you very much for considering WD 40, but if you are looking for a quick return, we are not the company for you. And he delivered consistent results over 20 years and high engagement, etcetera. And he managed the markets up, he managed the system. Not enough CEOs, I would assert, are prepared to have that difficult conversation. And that is why I go clip, because that's one conversation that any of these guys and girls with power could do to try and tip the system in a slightly different direction.

Jose Leal:

Is he still there?

Garry Turner:

No, not anymore. No. He's, he's handed over now.

Jose Leal:

Right. And is the attitude the same at that organization?

Garry Turner:

I believe it is. I couldn't I actually had dinner with Gary actually a couple of weeks ago in London. So I believe the ethos is still very much the same.

Jose Leal:

Because that's one thing that we've noticed is, you know, when Matt was working at the organization that he co-founded much of what you've just described existed within the organization but it got acquired. Yeah. And, you know, that ethos no longer exists. And we see that in so many organizations that have had a leader or leaders that were trying to make these changes. But they only remain within the, the power of that, of those individuals and not as a systemic change.

Matt Perez:

Right. As soon as it leaves the stage, it, it most likely changes. What's his name? The reinventing organizations?

Garry Turner:

Yeah, Lalu.

Matt Perez:

Lalu. Yeah. So Lalu wrote about 12 companies or something. And several of them, of them, I don't want to say most of 'em because I don't know but several of them have come back to being fiat on the basis that the, the CEO who made the change retired. And in one case the CCEO died, his son, which is sort of had this thing inside, I said, oh, what's this on managers? That's, that's illegal or something. And, and he changed it all back to to fiat to fiat kind of company where, you know, you, you report to his guidance guy reports to me and I get the final light to me and I'm happy. So yeah, I was sort reinforcing was, as I said, that, that that's, that's a change in the FIATs. And that's why I say when do I change this FIATs system? FIAT system is, it's fine.

Jose Leal:

Another F word? Yes. Okay.

Matt Perez:

Yeah. And, and no, but it is fine. Something's advancing. My thing is, look, they're going to get there until I heard this thing about the kid work, they're going to get there one way or the other because humanity can't take all that, all that pressure, all that responsibility, all that pressure, not responsibility. But but, but yeah, the, the mo if you do it in the FI system, the moment the leader leaves the stage, then it goes back to whatever, it may stay the same, very unlikely. It may go back to, to way it was very likely.

Jose Leal:

I just want to point out that we're at 42 minutes. I didn't it's gone so quickly. I didn't realize it's been that long. Garry, did you want to add anything else to our conversation?

Garry Turner:

I just want to say thank you both and also to Carlos as well. I think it's, it's really nourishing and also not just theoretical, which is what I appreciate. You know, we're really pushing and prodding at the system and what can we physically do. I think that's what's really important. 'cause Quite often this can get quite lofty and lost in theory, but I think we've been pretty practical today. The last thing I want to leave you with is one more experiment I'm running at the moment, very much in the, in the spirit of what you both discussed. So I am, I've not mentioned this on any public platform, and I'm not going to mention any company name because I wouldn't do that, but I'm in, I'm literally in the process of trying to help a, an organization merge as an equal, not a regular m and a that gets gobbled up and then basically people get laid off, etcetera. But there's a very progressive company within the extractive industries that wants to positively infect the big system. And they've proven to be very generative. They make good money. You know, the way the the organization works is very progressive. And my role is to try and find a suitor and they would stay as separate companies, but in essence, it'd be like this big one is investing in the small one to learn from it, to understand how it operates more democratically without, you know, decentralization of power, et cetera. But keeping them almost as partners and not being absorbed fully into, I think is also part of this when I think about the planet. Yeah. Yeah. Being in the orbit of one another is enough. We don't have to be part of and exactly the same as another company all the time. Right? So this, this, this is a quite fun experiment. I'm in the middle of it at the moment, is trying to work out, you know, how, how can we actually test and poke at this system that you say is very much, Matt, as you say, still very much fiat led, but how can we try and do some side and bottom up influencing of the big system by running some of these experiments? So it's a, that's a very live topic at the moment.

Matt Perez:

So not those character, but the company that we sold to, we had a company called Nearsoft and we sold it to <inaudible>. And that's what got this whole thing started in my head is why am I getting so much money? I didn't do anything. I mean, I didn't do anything, any, any growth related things. So we sold it, it got absorbed. The, the old people the people that we dealt with said actually came to Mexico and, and I'm not in Mexico, I'm in California, but this was Mexico at that at one point. And they went to Mexico and all that stuff. And then for their own reasons, they disappeared. They, they left the stage. And the new guy come from H-C-L, H-C-L has had a good story to tell, but it wasn't self organizing or anything. And and now it's, it's no more. It is. They said, well, you're part of the system. That's it. We don't want to have a system on the side. And and I'm having lunch with the CEO of the old Nearsoft in a few minutes. In fact, I'm be late. And and I'm going to ask him point blank, what, what's he said, we, we have to talk. And I don't know if it can fire me 'cause I've retired. But but you know, we're friends, we're good friends and we'll see what's going on. Maybe nothing. But at one point they'll tell 'em this or else. That's goes unless there's a contract in the fiat world, there's such a thing as contractor, you leave us alone and you'll sort, you know, you can't, you can suck things that way, but not this way.

Jose Leal:

Good, good luck with that, Garry.

Matt Perez:

Yeah, yeah. Good, good luck with that. Idid that like, oh, good luck with that.

Garry Turner:

No, no, it's, it's genuine. I mean there, in my opinion, there are a lot of things that need to happen. It's not just going to be one thing, right? Right. It's going to be everything. Right. And the more bottom up happens, the more top down is going to be possible and the more middle, middle up and middle down is possible. And, and that's everything gives somebody else a permission. Nice. Every little piece of, of whatever we do. And so the more anyone can do whatever that little bit is that can give somebody else adjacently the permission to do their thing. So,

Matt Perez:

So I haven't gotten announcements from Carlos. Carlos,

Jose Leal:

I'm not sure that we have anyone booked for next week yet. So maybe.

Matt Perez:

Oh, so we, we have nobody, book for next week. And that's what Carlos is not saying anything anyways so this has been more than I expected, to be honest. Not because of three of all has, but it is been very useful because, so say, say it's going to take a thousand experiments between before anything comes up as this is more successful, this is next successful. And I hope that it never becomes one. It it stays decentralized. And so what I'd like to do as your experiments and all this stuff is have you back at some point and sure. And then ask you how they, how'd they go?

Garry Turner:

More than welcome. More than welcome. Happy to share.

Matt Perez:

So, we'll, we'll then got that again.

Jose Leal:

And I think for what's up, what's upcoming? We've got the URL there on the bottom of Radical world live slash p slash upcoming dash one slash Carlos. We need to make that a little harder because that's a little too simple at the moment.

Matt Perez:

Yes. Minus one or dash one or something.

Jose Leal:

Awesome.

Matt Perez:

But anyways, what I'll say strange to say, just your calendar and, and you can go and look in the calendar, see what's coming next with that we do our goodbyes kind of thing, and no, you got, you got to keep it straight.

Garry Turner:

Royal goodbyes. Yes.

Matt Perez:

You got to keep us straight. And here's the Cuban telling the guy from the UK how to do it. Anyways.

Jose Leal:

Thank you, Garry. It was a pleasure.

Garry Turner:

Thank you both. Appreciate it. And thanks everyone.