H-Factor: Humanizing Organizations

Matt Perez (00:07):

Hi, my name is Matt Perez, and I'm here with Jose Leal, my partner in crime and Massimo Lavelli. And I met Massimo a while back, like three or four years back, and in Italy. And things since then, things have changed quite a bit for him. Or actually, I progressed quite a bit for him. And today we're going to talk about humanizing the workplace. So with that, we wanted you introduce yourself and help us with that.

Massimo Lavelli (00:48):

Yeah, thank you Matt. And thank you, Jose, for having invited me. I'm, I'm really excited to, to be part of this this thing. And I'm really grateful for that. I'm Massimo Lavelli. I'm from Italy, as you were saying, Matt. I'm a little bit of ma of my background. I'm a computer science engineer. I graduated in 2008, more or less from then on. I, I spent much of my time on the IT, so I, I pretty much did all involved myself in IT project. So from a developing testing and being the leader of some teams creating digital solutions. And I spent 10 years in a multinational company. From that experience, I decided to quit that that context, and we can talk if you want about that. And now I'm a consultant providing solutions to the, to my clients starting from creating solutions from a digital perspective or let's say helping my clients to create these human organizations I have in mind. So applying and using some tools, I learned on the way to, to, yeah, to create more environment that can allow people to, to be themself and to, and to work together on a, on a collaboration level. So I, I really love the, the collaboration as a, as a tools, as a way to, to do better solutions, to, to create more, yeah. Human place where people can live and can be happy because I wanted to, to have and to be happy on work, not just, you know feel the need of that from the other perspective, but, but we can talk about it.

Matt Perez (03:03):

Not only are you doing consulting on the IT side, but you're doing consulting on the shape of the organizations. People can be happy. How does, how does that work?

Massimo Lavelli (03:16):

Yeah, I am, let's say I am. Yes. I don't work actually just with the IT companies. I because it, for me organizations look the same wherever you go. So we, we are a bunch of people want want to, to work together reaching a goal and, and make a difference on the market, let's say. And but my thing is to, let's say flat a little bit the, the organizations and yeah, providing ways for, for the people to interact with themself in in a human way. So yeah, so I I offer my clients some practice and some tools to, to allow people to collaborate. And yeah. So yeah, I'm really intrigued by, by new ways of working, let's say. So this big field of solutions that can somehow can provide new ways of of working that, that can be different from a typical hierarchy situations. Yeah. So yeah, this, it, this is it.

Matt Perez (04:45):

So, and your clients go along with no hierarchy or when, tell us more about what you're, give us an example maybe of others works.

Massimo Lavelli (04:56):

Yeah. So let's say during my experience and the work I did so far, I, I met, for instance, the Agile way of working. So, and I spent much of the time understanding what, what agile means. And by examples, let's say we want to have a team or multiple teams working on digital solutions. So we can provide from an organizational perspective, you can provide the managers to tell people what to do, and create meetings around what it's need to be done from say a practical perspective. And based on the, what the company needs. So let's say we can use the traditional way of working or fiat as you, you mentioned always Matt. So providing a solution top down and let's say telling people exactly what we need because the company need that in, in that time, or we, we can allow the team of, or multiple teams discover the better the best solutions by interactions. So as consultant, I let's say I train the teams and I follow them along to practice different way of creating solutions. So yeah, let's say that I can help the, the people understand what it means. So, yeah. That is from an agile perspective, but this is more broad than Agile itself. So right now, I am, I work from the enterprise, enterprise level to the team level in terms of yeah, helping the leaders to, to shape those organizations to, yeah, not control everything in advance, but allowing people to express themself in the work they, they should do because of the, of what, what company needs.

Matt Perez (07:19):

Okay. And so can you give us an example of that?

Massimo Lavelli (07:24):

I can use the client I'm working with right now, so, so that this client is working on a textile market. So they wanted to provide textile solutions to the, to the, to its clients. But the thing the, the owner of the company had in mind when he called me and my, my team was that he doesn't want to provide every solutions to all the people, so not want to be in control of everything because for him was not sustainable and was not human. And yeah, let's, let's say he wanted to have more happier people on the, on the, on the, in the, on the workplace. So it, it means don't want to, yeah. To have this have people that leaving because they want, they don't feel part of something. And so he asked us to help him to shape the organization, to yeah, design or, and training the people to, to learn what it means in, in practice.

Matt Perez (08:42):

Okay. So he was already, he already had an intention of creating happier, quote unquote, happier workplace. So you're also a emco consultant, or how does, how does that part of it come into it?

Massimo Lavelli (09:03):

Yeah, I am, I discovered the Emco by chance, so I knew the story of Emco as let's say a human organization or an organization where people can yeah, couldn't, can work without bosses tell everyone what to do. This was, this was a story I had. I I listened to and I, and read it on, of course, the story is more, is much more complex than, than this. But yeah, the, the seco style, let's say, was something I had in mind to deepen that a little bit, because the [inaudible] similar was the, let's say the not just the owner of the, the company, but was a pioneer on that kind of organizations. And I, I discovered that someone in Holland and Netherlands provided a certified program to discover what it means in practice to create a, a more emco style, let's say, organization. So I then I certified I got it certified. So now I'm a, an expert on that matter. It means that yeah, let's say from a emco style perspective, it means that as organization, we can create context that can reach performance, of course, but with happiness and and impact in mind. So those are the three core values, let's say. And the, the SCO I provide, let's say a toolbox of practice where you can work with the people and with the teams to, let's say, for instance, to generate more, more trust in among the people. You can, let's say for instance, you can work with the more more, more self-discipline. So, so you can create self-autonomy, autonomous team that can decide themself how approach work and who involved when. So it's a frame of the problem we are everyone into. So we wanted to explore new ways of creating Yeah, different organizations more than the traditional ones. So, and I call them human as organizations because I wanted to, to provide solution that can be understood by the people and can and where people can feel themselves more and more. This is my thing.

Matt Perez (11:39):

Right, right. So are all your customers, all your clients have this idea of wanting happy organization, or do you have to convince them? Or how, how does it work?

Massimo Lavelli (11:59):

You every time you work on that, I learn that you, you must, let's say face or, or do different thing at the same time. So there's someone that resonate already with a, with a thing. So when you ask him or her to, let's say to if, when you invite him or her to, to explore a problem, let's say, so what, how do you feel working on that? They react they resonate. So they understand why you are asking him or her this, and they, yeah, somehow they already prepared. Let's say there's someone that required training because they, they don't have any experience or any skills, let's say, or already mature skills to, to work in that situation. Or there's someone that must be convinced because I think that people tend to, to be defensive in when they used to to be told what to do and to, yeah, to to be controlled. Yeah. Yeah. So this is the, the, the hard work to, yeah, to invite everyone and to involve everyone, everyone in the, in this work.

Matt Perez (13:29):

And do you have to gain the trust of the people to trust you or, or they, they, right away they say, oh, this, this work, it's humanizing this.

Massimo Lavelli (13:44):

Say, yeah, let's say, yeah. I, I don't have any let's say experience from years and years. I, I but I, I, I've been part in in few projects, so let's say five six client, more or less. And whenever you as a, an as let's say an external partner, you enter those contexts always I was seen as as an outsider, you know, it's an a stranger, so someone that wants to, yeah, to, to help, but that, that doesn't know anything about the context. So, yeah, it's that, that also there are parties to connect with the context and to respect the, the, the context, of course, but to be to be seen as someone that can help them in order to progress and to make the work better. So it's yeah, it's interesting in my opinion work. So because you work with the human dynamics and human complexity and with context that have different history and different characteristics. So it's it's much more of it's a worker that you that I approach as as how do you say wizard? You know, you, you make, experiment with the people, let's say make a providing workshop and providing some trainings and see what's going, what happens, and yeah, explore the results and see how to progress. So it's an interactive work every time. Yeah. Very interesting. <Laugh>,

Jose Leal (15:29):

I wonder how long it takes that process and how big these organizations are that you've worked with?

Massimo Lavelli (15:38):

As far as I understand, the, the, let's say that that's, that, let's say that when we approach it, let's say complexity, and when the fact that we want to humanize organizations, it takes time. So let's say I don't, I don't, I don't know if it's my thing or, or it's common thing, but if you want to, to, to make a change and to, to provide the, the change to be understood and to be owned by the people, it takes years, my opinion. So let's say it's not, it's, it's, you don't want, you don't have necessary to, to wait years to, to see some results. Whenever we do that, that work the, the in one year, you, you see the, the, the, the change, let's say happening because the people tend to communicate more and understanding more each other. And they start usually to propose and to make proposal to, to some problems. And and really understand in one year, let's say more or less six months, one year is the time where you see some something happening in the system. But yeah, let's say that whenever you want to progress more, it takes more and more years to, to see some, yeah, it takes time.

Jose Leal (17:19):

The, the reason I'm wearing the glasses is because as you know, we like to talk about the, the fiat. Here I am, ah, here, I, I disappeared, I reappeared. And so one of the things Massimo that we, we talk about is the people that you're talking about that are, that you first encounter, they might be, you know, kind of asking themselves what's, what's going on out there? What's, what's this thing about humanizing? But very frequently they snap right back, right? And it's like, oh, you know I still need to control things. And I then you go, oh, yeah, but I need to give them freedom. Oh, no, no, I need to control things. And that's, I think the experience that you're talking about is how long it takes for that to be able to actually see, I need to let go. I need to be free to let go of people to, to let them be. And so my question to you is, when, when you're experiencing your clients going through this exercise of flipping the lens from one of needing to control to one of letting people emerge, letting people find what they need to do and do the thing, you are still dealing mostly with the leaders or the, the founders, or the owners, and, and how, how difficult is that process of, of having a boss, if you will, that is your client, and, and knowing that they're going through this difficulty of pulling up these lenses, but then also having to have the, the people that work there individually find their own lens individually, flip their own fiat lens up so that they can be in a, in a radical state, meaning rooted in themselves?

Massimo Lavelli (19:31):

That thing, in my opinion, that's the mission work that must be done. Yeah, allow everyone to, to flip the, the glasses and to understand what it means in in practice because the, let's say the size of, of our clients, I, I work with some other colleagues in, in this, because it's hard to do it to do it alone because of the heaviness, let's say, of the process. And yeah, the, the, the clients usually are , the, the size I work with is from 30, 40 people that it's not, of course, it's not it's a complex enough to merge, to see emerging the new, also the new, the, the different ways as people flip the, the thing, you know. So it's, it's, the dynamics is very interesting. And by doing this work we tend to see that of course, the work started from start from the owner. So the owner that wants to flip the glasses, but doesn't know exactly what it means. He or she knows the why, let's say, or, or understand the why some on some level and requires the work to be done in order to, to, to, to, to go deep and, and flip the glasses. And, but he or she and the context the, all the contexts ask me and my team what it means in practice. Because they tend to, to, to ask. Okay, let can you provide me an example on that or what it let, let me see what it means. And starting from the why, why am I why I need to do it, why my way of working is not you know it's not okay in it's not okay, why, why is not okay, why I need to, to, to flip to, to, to flip the glasses, but yeah. But not just, not, let's, let's not say flipping the glasses. Why am I I'm addressing glasses? What are those glasses? You know, that's a, a strange metaphor to say that, everyone must understand what we required from that, from them in, in a practical on a practical level, right? And it's the hardest part, other part, yeah, but it's in my opinion, it's sorry, Jose, I interrupted you, but I feel it that it that must, should be done. So I, because I tend to see people suffering and, and even those, even though they don't say it because they tend to cover it up because they tend to see themselves vulnerable around other people. So even, even though they cover it up it, it we, we see it, we see it everywhere we go. People want to, to contribute and don't know why don't know how, sorry. And context that one, that that should require more people involved and they don't know how to do it. Yeah. It's an interesting work, actually to say the least.

Matt Perez (23:32):

In my experience, the, the, the bosses, the people that hire you at some point in time, they, they can say, oh, they're going to do better. They're going to do more; they're going to do whatever. And they let you go, but you get the resistance from the people on the team because of what you said is they want to be following the role. They don't want to be completely transparent to everybody else. And there's always, in my experience, there's always somebody who's trying to be the sub boss, you know, he is trying to control the situation and stuff like that. So it is, it is difficult from both sides, you know, from it is not just, oh, you were in this classes or where you were in this class, well, because that's what you're born with and people teach you from when you're little and all that stuff. But it is has to do with people on the team as well. And collaboration is, is collaboration is not the same as cooperation. Yeah. And we're, we're told to cooperate. We're, we're, we're taught to cooperate. Whereas collaboration, working together, having the back and forth and all that stuff it doesn't, they, they try to beat us out of us in, in Italy and Spanish country and Portugal and places like that. I know that when you're a family and you're trying to talk, people interrupt you and they, they say things and it's, it looks like a big mess, but it's one of trusting the other person. It comes from trusting the other person. And but we're taught at work, you don't do that. You got to address correctly and wait until the other guy finishes and then see your peace and, and stuff like that. And that, that causes people to be separated from each other. So, and, and as they started saying, we're more there's a co-management, we call it co-management, self self-management, because we don't believe that there's the companies itself, or the business has itself other than the people that are part of it. And but ownership is also important because it is like when you come to, to your house, you, you're the owner of everything around it. And you, you leave things here and there and your wife says, oh, move over there and, and all that stuff, but you, you feel home. You feel welcome in, in, in honor of the whole thing. And, and we think that's a big part of what's was missing, is that commencement is fine. It goes a long way. And getting people to, to cooperate and collaborate and stuff like that is a big thing, but ownership is also a big part of it. So, but I, I think it doesn't enter into your, into your job. So how, how successful has the company this teams been in terms of closing more results or, or doing things or being happy, or what kind of, what can you point to that say, oh, that's success?

Massimo Lavelli (27:43):

Let's make it very, very simple. When we work with a client and the, the, the earlier day days where we, we started to work together we, we went to their offices and that there was a birthday in the, in the office. And we saw something interesting to notice. So there's there was a birthday, there was a cake, and there was the, the, there was the, the, the one that has a birthday, but the, the contest was, you know, cold. There's no, there was no any worm greeting to, to him. And so we, we, we noticed that. So we, there was, there was formally a, a birthday party, but no, was, no one's really happy about it. So no one's too much involved. Yeah, there was some smile on the with about that, but yeah, not people tend to kept their eyes on the, on the, on the monitor, on their, their displays, and instead doing the job, let's say after one year, we, we noticed a, a complete flip about that. So third parties were planned th there was a, a plan about we who, and when has the birthday and everything was more organized pre-organized, let's say. So everyone knows about the birthday party. And the, they decided they planned at what time the best suit at the party for everyone. And so more, more people in, in involved in the, in the process. So what I want to say is that because of the work we did, probably not, not just because of us, because they, they, the process, they were they went into, they under, they generate this birthday plan because why? Because they, they, let's say they experiment with them new forms of collaboration, so not following a process. So one doing in a role providing outputs to another one with another role and stuff and stuff. So, and complaining to each other. They started to, to work on in the same team. So we involved them. So from a team perspective, we, we mixed the, the, the skills. So we create those cross functional teams, and they, they explore solutions to the, to the company. So we had a problem on let's say on mission and vision, so that the, the people complaining about not knowing exactly what was the mission in the, in the vision of the company. So we create those cross-functional team to, to work on the matter. So they put, they as an output. They created let's say a guide a document an internal document that provide the mission and vision of the company. So, but doing that, they collaborate, they, they may work on the same thing. They practice, let's say a new ways of making decisions together. So we at that time, we, we experimented the, the consent as a way of deciding something together. And so they met each other on a different level. So having the same problem providing a solutions together, and this thing at this idea, provided to, to, to different accounting, different problems of organizations in the same form, provide this an as an output of after one, just one year. So at different shape of the culture, without saying that one, that what we, we were working on, on the cultural level, but we generate a new experience, a new, new kind of habits for everyone, because everyone was involved. So, yeah, this is another thing is to somehow to involve everyone in the process, it make the difference. Yeah. It's a, it's a, yeah, it's very simple. Example I have in mind.

Matt Perez (32:33):

So yeah, that's, that's another big mistake in fiat companies is That you only do this much and the other guy does that much and other guy and humanity gets lost. So it's, it's less human.

Jose Leal (32:52):

Sorry, go ahead.

Matt Perez (32:53):

Go ahead.

Massimo Lavelli (32:54):

No, I was just going to say, it's a powerful example because all too often what we're looking for in the fiat world is again, well, they're faster at this and they made more money at this, and they did more efficient at that. And you can't, you can't make people happier by, by the numbers, right? It's what made us unhappy in the first place is we became disconnected, we became dysfunctional in, in the way we work with each other, and we're simply competing and, you know, trying to figure out how to, how to outdo each other rather than trying to figure out how do we help each other? And you can't help each other if you're not connected, because helping someone who's connected is what emerges because you're connected trying to help somebody artificially meaning, oh, I, I'm not really connected with that person. I don't really care about that person, but I'm going to, I'm going to help them, isn't going to work, right?

Matt Perez (34:09):

Yeah. It's like I, I'm going to touch 'em at a long distance.

Massimo Lavelli (34:14):

Yeah. Let, let's say Jose, it means to me it happier people can generate better results, let's say. And the, the, the, the flipping part in my, my head is that people can be happier also working on the, on on the number, let's say. So in that the way the people tend to work with each, with each other make the difference, the quality of the interaction, the quality of the, of the, of the ways we approach work make the difference. So it's, it's interesting. So happier people better result and, and yeah. With the results, you can be happier as well. Well, it's interesting. It's,

Jose Leal (34:59):

But it's, it's a cycle of, of emergent thing. Yeah. And that's the point. If, if you focus only on the numbers, you miss the connection. If you focus only on the connection and you also don't then help each other to work better. You know, we've probably all seen teams that are great buddies. But, you know, great buddies by themselves don't necessarily produce. And when we want to do something, when we want to make an impact, that makes a difference. I was going to, well, I was just going to suggest that I know we said this was going to be 30 minutes and your wife is waiting for you.

Massimo Lavelli (35:46):

Let me announce the, the next year's guess, I guess we're not having anymore this year. But next year the we'll have Cece Wang, founder of Idea Match, and I love that picture. For some reason. This, it really gets me. And, and that schedule for January 3rd it says year, I'm gonna read about Idea match, an all driven, AI driven platform that leverage leverages advanced ai, natural language processing and data analytics to connect and formalizes between creators. I'm really looking forward to that because I think, well, we're going to find out what, what this means by that, by meant by that. And and with that, have it happen New Year, and we'll see you next year.

Jose Leal (36:51):

Yeah, thank you Massimo for, for joining us and for being a part of all this work that needs to be done. So it's, yeah. It's wonderful to know that people like you are involved in it because if people like you are doing it, then it's definitely going to be more human cause that that's who you are. So thank you.

Massimo Lavelli (37:11):

Thank you very much.

Matt Perez (37:12):

But by the way, his name is Massimo.

Jose Leal (37:14):

Yeah, I know. I said Maximo I know

Matt Perez (37:18):

With is my middle name. Maximo different. He means the same thing, so, okay. Alright. Thank you

Jose Leal (37:26):

Happy holidays and a big hug to you and your wife.

Massimo Lavelli (37:30):

Yeah, you too guys. Yeah. Say all to your wives.