A Radical Conversation With...

Jose Leal:

Hello there. Welcome to the Radical World Podcast. My name is Jose leal and my partner in crime is missing today. But maybe he'll join us. We'll see. Matt Perez, who is my co-host here on Radical World. And today we have a special guest who I'm hoping we will have a wonderful conversation, not an interview with Luis Salas from Monterrey, Mexico joins us. And we're going to find out a little bit more about Luis. But I, I wanted to remind us about what the Radical World Podcast is about. It's an opportunity for us to understand both the fiat lens that has created the fiat world that we have today. A world of control, a world of command and control, as well as understanding that there is a different lens that we can see the world through a radical lens. That we know if most of us adopt that radical lens, we will have a radical world, one that serves humanity, that serves life. And so with that reminder that that's the conversation we're going to have today, we have in Luis, someone who has both experienced a lot of the fiat world and the radical world in the work that he has been doing. And we want to learn from him. And and hopefully he will learn a little bit from us as well in this process of having a conversation. So, welcome and thank you, Luis, for making the time.

Luis Salas:

Thank you, Jose, for the invitation. And I am sure we will enjoy our conversation.

Jose Leal:

I'm very sure we will. So far we have. So Luis I'd like you to, to tell us a little bit about your, your fiat background. Like, how did you come to do the work that you're doing? What, what made you flip the lens as we like to say?

Luis Salas:

Yeah. So you can imagine, I come from the law world. I was a lawyer. Come for a lawyer, you know, you see the, the dark side, and then you see, I see many situations, you know, naturally with the conflicts and things that sometimes law has to face that he's in every place. But also the models operandi of the law firm and international law firm respected. But it was a place that I don't like to be there because it was against all the things that I think about work at the time with my, you know, my rookie level of, of working. And, you know, there was pretty you know, the partners were like some kind of semi gods or gods. So they treat with many respect. I mean, cism. And then we always have like this kind of, you know, forcing you to go to, to the employees and, you know, forcing them to sign their contract so they can quit without you giving some you know, their, their, their, their money, their fees, their, their fair fees. So at the end, I look around the, the partners and say, I look at those guys and were, you know, were smart. They were very prepared, but they were desperate. They were divorced, they were, you know, and fat. They were like, some even addicts drugs, too many things. And I say, this is not the future I want. There should be another way. So it was that moments. I, I mean, I, I learned a lot and I learned many, many skills, and I was prepared. I actually, I have my LLM too, and, you know, I feel with, with the with all the tools necessary to be a good lawyer, but at the end, there were ethics. It wasn't for me. So I say, it is too big to be against this world. The best thing to do is to say goodbye. And you know, when you are in that dark side, you, it's always, I think you see some light coming. And that light was the family business. And that thing helps me a lot because at the end, you know they give me trust. And my family, it was a courage here in Monterrey in a very you know where is all the headquarters, all the corporates all the office there, and there is many also schools. And it's a place with many tradition. So I started there, and I think it was no more like the technic level I have, but was more the will to do the things differently that take me, you know, to the collaborative transparency, vulnerability, you know, companionship. And I think that was something that, that naturally comes, you know I like to say, I don't know what you think, but I, I like when we, now that we do, you know, organizational change, we always said that to do an organizational change helps a lot or is almost, I don't know, it's a prerequisite or necessarily, but that the main or the leader or the director or the owner of the, you know, that organizations have already an, an internal transformation. So he can say, okay, now that I know my battles, now that I feel, you know, a little bit desperate or feel the anxiety of this, this, there should be another way to do the things. When they have these things as I live with the, you know, the lower and this law firm until that moment you see that you can do the things differently or there could be another way and you want actually to make change. But when the leaders and you know, don't have this internal conscious or this internal change is very hard, that they actually want to apply another change because they have never do a change by themselves. So they have not believed that. I don't know what you think, but I

Jose Leal:

No, absolutely. I think one of the things that when you're describing the situation with, with the law firm, like you started to see, you know, this flipping of the lens, right? Like, you, you started to say, wow, what I'm seeing, I, you could easily have continued to use the dark lens, right? Not easily, because it hurts. Yeah. That's why they were addicted. That's why they were unhappy. That's why they were divorced. Yeah. Because it hurts to live in this world, right? In the fiat world. Yeah. But, but I did that right when I was in corporate for 10 years as, as a vice president of a, of a media company. I was, not only were they on for me, I could see the pain in others, I could see the pain in myself, but I thought that that was the way it was. That's just the way it is. It takes a little bit of the lifting the glasses to think it doesn't have to be that way. Yeah. Right. You might not see it all, but you, you certainly see that it doesn't have to be that way. And I think that's the transition that you described when you went to your family business is, okay, there's another way to see this, there's another way to, to start to act. And, and when you said that the founders have like this this interchange that you described, you know, for me, the language we are using is they've flipped the lens. And I think there's a difference in the way we describe flipping the lens and say, having a new consciousness. It's, it's that we see the world different, not just that we know we have to do other things. Because it's, it's one thing to say, we have different practices. We're going to do self-management, we're going to do da da da da da, practice that, practice. In that way, we're going to reduce hierarchy, right? But seeing that as a real part of how you see the world, not just what's the next practice we need from the shelf? Let's grab a practice. Let's grab a practice, let's grab a practice, you know ?Because I'm just grabbing a practice because you're telling me that's the practice we need. Instead of saying,I see this need, how do I solve this need? And now we, now we can grab the practice, but I see the need. Whereas before, I didn't see the need because I was still seeing that I need to control the situation.

Luis Salas:

Yeah. And I think that's was the way at the end, you know sometimes it's this danger that you just mentioned, that you, we don't, we just want to follow frameworks or what is the, the best methodology right now in order to implement. But at the end, as if you, we don't change the lenses that we see the world you know, our attitudes and our behaviors. Because at the end, we can implement, like many organizations apply agile. Okay, we apply, apply, we apply agile. But at the end, if our behavior is to be, you know no, not collaborating only like use like these, for example, OKRs in order only to control and only to, you know, make pressure. Okay, you have to adapt. This framework is done. You know, the door is open and you can leave, and we don't right. Value your opinion at the end. There is no change at the background. There is only a change in superficiality and the things, and the people say, okay, this is another methodology that we need to implement. And that not motivates at the end. So, when we see ourselves in a more complete way, in a more human way, you know it helps. For example, I, I love it because I don't know if you people what you think about this, but sometimes we wrongly think that we have to be like this geniuses in order to apply another framework. But in this case, for example, was a car, was that we apply sort of aisle without, you know, the, like all this scrum and, you know, very technique. But we have these meetings, we have open meetings, we have this okay, what you think or what we can get better what is on your work you know, that is not, not helping you to make the best work. You can, you can do what you propose. No. And you don't have to say, okay, we are applying I Okay in a, in a way, yes, some principles, but it's not the technical thing is the, you know, the attitude. I think we used to, to say a phrase that is, the thing about change is not technical, and it's not about learning necessarily. It's openness. Right. To, you know,

Jose Leal:

It's a clear lens, right? It's the clear lens. It's being open to seeing the reality of the situation and not having that lens down. When you were talking about the lawyers, one of the things that I think is really I important as I see it, is that through this transition, 'cause we all know the world is going through a transition, right? And as we are going through this transitions, there are people like you, you're a radical. You're out there making this thing happen, right? And you're doing it because you recognize that not only do you want that, other people want it and, and you're helping other people flip their lens, right? But one of the things that I think is detrimental through the to this is that sometimes we blame the people who have the lens down. And, and I think one of the things that's really important for us to realize is they're not guilty for that lens. They didn't choose that lens. They were given that lens by society, by their parents, by their school, by their community, by their church, by their, the whole thing, right? They by when they go to work and somebody's the boss, and they go, oh, well, I want to be the boss, and he has power, so I want to have power. You just learn to behave the way that the system already has. And, and I felt guilty for many years for having done the things that I did, and I've, I've given myself permission to say, I did what I knew how to do. That's all I did. And I don't think I was guilty, but if I did it today, I would feel guilty because I would know better <laugh>. Right. is, do you feel that that's true? Does that resonate for you?

Luis Salas:

Yeah, a lot. I, I think you know, at the end, when, when you see this change, you actually have more compassion of yourself too. Because you say, okay, I, at the end, I don't try to harm anybody. That's why, one, I, I think I quit in this, this job and this way. But also we say, okay, behind, behind all this, this person has suffered and have traumas, have history behind them, and have, you know, difficulties have a family to attend. It's not easy also to, to go kind of against, you know, okay, because I, I have my work. And they can say, okay, I have a work. And you know, it, it's, it's, it's okay. And I have to keep it so it, it is so hard because at the end, you go, and we grow in this environment of always like, competing against each other. And, you know that's for, for example, in my city, Monterrey is a very industrial city. And before some, some, at beginning of 20th century, there was nothing. There was, they started with, you know, the braveries you know, there's many human people that actually studied outside. For example, the Ada studied in the MIT at the time. Nobody studied. There was like, okay, this is the lawyer of the, of the, of the city. This is the engineer, you know? And actually he start bringing people from Germany, from Austria to, to help to do you know, the, the, the, the beers, the Ry. So, and then he, he founded Tec of Monterrey you know, in order that, that people learn and, you know, have a, have a graduation. But it was, it was like some of, some of survival thing, you know? But now the, the, the time change, and I think the collaboration helps, but we understand collaboration. When we feel ourselves needed, when we feel ourselves, okay, I'm not the superhero anymore. I can, I need someone to collaborate, and that guy and that people, that that person also needs to collaborate. And that person in a way, needs me. And in a way, as I, I always say to my students that you I want to be the teacher, but at the end, to help you, to discover yourself, what you want to do in, in the world, and, and say, we are one of, of, you know we are complying in order to, to both people grow. Not the teacher or the guide, like the people that guide you myself, the facilitator more than a teacher. But I think we have to change a little bit this of, of collaboration. But until we see ourselves as needed people, as people that you know, coexist with the other people, we understand that, okay, we can do a network, we can do a, a good collaboration. There's no more like this hierarchy, but at the end, we are at the same level. So I don't know if, if that also resonates with you, but, you know, the more I feel like the dark, the more I see that I need other hand to, to help me bringing up, bringing up the best of me. And a smarter pro said, if we, if we change ourselves at the end, if even the environmental don't change, but if we change everything, change, you know? Right. And we start to see the world differently.

Jose Leal:

Absolutely. And it absolutely resonates with me. And I think I've started to have like a, a different idea about the word change. Because everybody knows change is hard. But that's because we try to force change. We say, oh, I have to change this about me, and I have to force that change. Right? I have to make the change happen most often. I think that our change, when by the time we have the intuition that we want that change, that change is already happening. It's, it's the recognition, oh, I need to make this change. This change feels like it's a, it's a transition. Don't force the change, but look for the things that are going to help the change happen. Because we don't change by ourselves. You want to see a change go towards the people who are doing that change or already making that change with you, because you will learn from them. You will see them, you will emulate them, and they will emulate, emulate you, and you will help each other through the change. This idea that I have to change Yeah. I think is a little bit of a, of a misnomer that change only really happens collectively. Yeah. I can't change by myself a hundred percent just not possible. Because even if I could and the people around me are like, what the hell's wrong with this guy? They're somewhere else. I see a, a message here from Ms. K who, who says that we need this to be successful in the future. How, how do you feel about that? Like, what do you see as far as if we collectively not individually but collectively don't make this change. What do you think happens to us?

Luis Salas:

Well, first of all, thanks, for your comment. Thanks to be here. We, we say hi to you and well, yeah. At the end I, I like to, to, I, I always try to quote this famous Isaac Newton, what he say? That it is not my, sort of my worth of doing this, you know, the, the laws. The laws. But he was over the shoulders of many people, you know? And I think sometimes our generation, because we, you know, people that, you know, that give themselves to study, to, you know, to provoke all these evolution in technology, all this estimation growth, we are fortunate and privileged to, to sort of, of, of having all these changes, you know? Absolutely. And some, and sometimes we, for forget about it, that we take it for granted. So I believe many in, in the collective, in the collective change, you know I think that you said the leaders more that you know, I, they are the change. If you have the possibility to open the door to, democratize the democratization of the knowledge of participation there can be many, many, there can be many change at, at the end. There's like quote, I, I forget the name, but then Foresight said that the future is already there, but it's not well distributed. And I believe in that there's many changes in, in you know, like in a village, in a university. But we can open to that change. We can sort of, of do democratization to that thing. And I believe that we are privileging this era. So, so we can, you know, if we have all this communication, if we can, you know, like this conversation that we're having open, and thanks for, for doing, for doing it, and to make it happen. I think we have all the media to open the door to these conversations, to, to these changes. I think that's, that's the main thing that we, we don't have to lose this opportunity to the democratization of knowledge and conversations. Hey, Matt, is there?

Matt Perez:

Hey, I'm here. Sorry, I was, I was delayed. And my excuse is I went to sleep at five in the morning, so just about, I know Luis, when he was here four years ago or something like that, he was here a while back, and I've been following his work, so it's good. Good that we have him. Yeah.

Jose Leal:

Are you having a tough time sleeping or are you just.

Matt Perez:

No.

Jose Leal:

[INAUDIBLE] And couldn't stop?

Matt Perez:

No, I did my Perez, I got focus on the book and I said, I got to get this sucker out. And so.

Jose Leal:

Good, good. So we were having a good conversation here with, with Luis. Just to catch you up a little bit. We, we started talking about the i the idea of change and, and that it's not just one individual that changes, but we need sort of a collective change, right? Those, those around us and in our communities and, and in our workplaces. And, and there you go. Matt's made the change. Luis, we have to get you, we have to get you some of these glasses.

Matt Perez:

I'm, I'm half. I'm see fi I see fiat this side,

Jose Leal:

Go ahead. Go ahead.

Luis Salas:

No, what, what, welcome, welcome, Matt. Hope you that you are fine. And, and well, we'll, talking about this collective change. I, well, the next, the next time I will bring my glasses. I don't use to sunglasses, but I can ask for my brother that my brother use many sunglasses and he had to use glasses, so he always put on that. But yeah. And well, and we said, we, we, these conversations helps. I, I mean, we are not sort of geniuses and we are not like the good guys, but we can provoke these conversations. And many, we have all the media, all the things in our world. 'cause We are privileged thanks for the work for many people through the years that we can, you know, open the door to that to that change, you know? And I think it's something that has no went, I don't know what you think, but it's not like, okay, we are like open now. We are more radical and, and that's it. And we, you know, we, we discover America and we are here and that's it. Yeah. You know?

Jose Leal:

No, absolutely. We like to think, Matt and I use this analogy, we say, you know, there's a spring here on these, right? And we look out a little bit through the, the thing, and then the spring wants to come back, and then we pull it up a little bit more. It's a continuous effort. It's not, oh, I'm radical and I got this a hundred percent, because we don't know what we don't know. We don't know what we saw yesterday, what we will see tomorrow. It's a process. It's a journey. We call this a radical journey. And, and part of the journey is recognizing that we've had this fiat world for so long, that was that was built on this fiat lens, this dark lens of humanity that we are, you know, we're evil and we, we need to be controlled and we need to do this. And if, if we don't do it, it's going to be chaos. So we're doing it for a good reason. We don't want chaos. Right? But how do we go deep into that question of what is reality? Because if we don't see each other as bad as needing to be controlled and all of that, how do we start to see a different reality? Because it's, there's a no end to that question. What is the reality underneath? Right. Both for us and for, you know, for, for everybody as we go forward. 'cause Every context is different, right?

Luis Salas:

Yeah. Wait, yeah, go ahead.

Matt Perez:

I'm going to ask you both. So have you learned anything so far? Have you learned from Jose and, and Jose has, if you learned from Luis?

Jose Leal:

In this conversation, you mean?

Luis Salas:

I feel that, you know reflect, reflecting make some reflection of this, make these stop or, or, you know we always learn more like in, in conversation and sharing. And, and that's the danger too. I mean we never stop or we never kind of you know, share our thoughts and experiences. We, we never, you know, we never learn at the end. I, for example, I, I, I always do an analogy. I am a runner, you know sometimes I always, oh, I want to increase my rhythm and be faster next time. And I will may do exercise to only in also in, in we days and go uphill and do more exercise, and then say, Luis, you, you, you can't, you can't, you, you cannot hold. And, you know, the, our muscles in order to to, to evolve, also need some rest, you know? And we, we live in a very, hurry, hurry, hurry, world, you know? So I think this helps, helps a lot and, and only, you know, a schedule, some, some meeting only to conversation. Only to, to, to get in touch with people is, is so valuable nowadays. Always, but better. Yeah. Nowadays even better. Yeah.

Jose Leal:

Yeah. For me, one, the conversation is very important, as you just said, it's. It's about not coming to a conversation like this and trying to sell, here's my, you know, framework. Buy the framework, take the framework, use the framework, and we have that conversation, you know, practices and frameworks. That's, that's the solution to everything. But not only having a conversation that recognizes that these conversations are important, but also as you've pointed out, and I think that that's something I take away so far from our conversation. We're just another step in the process of evolution, of social evolution. And we are, as you said, standing on the shoulders of everybody else who got us here. We're standing on the shoulders of the people who made this computer and this technology that allowed us to be here. Because without it, we couldn't. Right? Yeah. And we're also, we need to be really humble enough to realize for ourselves and for everyone else, that all we are doing is going through our experience and not an experience that you have to take, but an experience that you can learn from. Right? And, and it's, there's a difference between those two things. It's not, Hey, this is what we're doing, so you have to do it, but this is an experience that we've had, and would you like to also participate in that? And we have a, another cool Luis comment from I can't pronounce that name. Do you know how to pronounce that name?

Luis Salas:

We have, we friends from, well, colleagues from Tec it's good. From, from South Africa. So Phil, it is good to to know more about you, that you are, you are, that you're, well, we, I think we met in Switzerland, like eight, nine years ago at a the event. So, so it's, it's good that you, that you write. Thank you.

Jose Leal:

Thank you for attending our, our podcast today

Matt Perez:

From Africa.

Jose Leal:

Yeah. so Matt I wanted to give you an opportunity to maybe share your thoughts as well of what you've heard so far from our conversation.

Matt Perez:

No, what I heard so far is, is he said, in some words, you said in your own words, we're learning from each other. That's why I asked, what did you learn? What do you take away? And but we get it started. And the timing is right. I mean, a lot of people my son my sons who are 40 and 37 or something I should know.

Jose Leal:

Something is a little scary.

Matt Perez:

Yeah, I was, I was there, but I forgot. Anyways they, they feel that this is not for them. You know, the having a career, having kids and all that, it is not, excuse my French, it is not for them. They, they don't want that. And lots of people are feeling that way. So the timing is right, and that people feel like and translate to misogyny and, and, and you know, all kinds of the climate change and stuff like that. But it really radicals, it stands for roots, not the radical that I'm going to kill you and all that stuff. And they don't, they don't go beyond the first thing they find. They say, oh, it's misogyny, we got to kill. Yeah. Misogyny is bad. It's stupid actually. And but that's not the call us because is not that some people wake up and they're misogynist, you know, or whatever. What you said about people not being bad and being good people have resulted their environment. And that is what I keep taking away from that thank God that really is on the side of doesn't feel right. Let's do something about it. That's, that's goodness. But, you know, getting to the root is, I from my, from my own experience, what this brought to me is peace. I look at TV now and I don't get angry at anybody. I don't get, I just go, oh, medium belongings this guy is, is listen, is missing that or whatever. And whatever the activity is. And sometimes I get angry at people for are saying some things I even weren't. Age has a lot to do with it, obviously, but it's just annoying where it comes from. You should fix that. You change the, the, the journey that society's going to take. And that's very reassuring. I used to think that we're going to kill the shelves and all that stuff. I don't anymore. We're going to survive. We're going to fight. So that's my, my thought for day now we need some people like Luis and ourselves and stuff like that to, to spread that message. You know? It won't, it won't spread itself. It, it will spread itself, but over many, many years, maybe two generations from now.

Jose Leal:

Yeah, we need to, we have both the technology. And how, and the, the time to, to accelerate what, what, in previous centuries, a transformation like this has taken decades, sometimes centuries needs to happen in, in a much faster way because it can happen. Because it, not because we will make it happen, but because that's where we're at. That's the tools we now have. The society we now have can allow for this transformation to happen much more rapidly than it it did historically. It's not the first time we're doing this, right?

Matt Perez:

No. And it's, it is hard. I was thinking this morning it is very hard to make this transformation because it, it, for example, Marx, Carl Marx I'm reading there, their [INAUDIBLE] manifesto again. And he's said like three versions of it. And he got this, he got the problem. He really nailed the problem is people exploiting each other for power. That's it. They're not bad. They just created a system that allows 'em to, to exploit each other and stuff like that. And sometimes it'd be up, sometimes it'd be down. You know, you're the same, kind of the same person. And but he got the solution all wrong. He wanted a revolution. He wanted bullets. And he says, we can't, we can arm people with muskets. And I'm thinking, musket, oh yeah, that, that thing The tie with a ball . And but he wanted a revolution. He wanted it so bad. And he was fairly young man when he wrote the, the manifesto with angles. And so he, he let himself, he let put himself get carried away with that, but he got the solution, right? It's, it's basically, I'm sorry. The, the problem, right? It's basically the same thing that we're saying was bad, is the system is not us in particular. The system pushes it that way very gently. And awe add more tools to that system. That's the scary part that we're very good at coming up with tools and stuff like that. And, and, and that's what we have to do a little bit faster. Have people listen to the, the words and stuff like that. Have people get off. A lot of people are going to get off at what we're saying and but get 'em thinking because everybody's going to follow a different direction. We'll got to get 'em thinking and put that in, put that being the head that they got to go that way and away from this, this way. And we'll be okay.

Jose Leal:

Yeah. I, I don't think it's less, it's not so much that we have to get them thinking, but that they are already thinking and we need to show them that there is a way to see what they can see that's different because it, it, again, if we, if what they think is they need to follow somebody else's, Their somebody else's process. Somebody, you know, I've been following this guy that's not going me in the direction. Let me go follow that guy. 'cause That guy knows what's going on. No, that guy doesn't know what's going on. No. The only thing that guy knows is that he sees something different. You have the ability to see something different too, right? That's, that's I think the message here is it's not so much about follow this path but see the path that you can follow yourself.

Matt Perez:

Yeah. And that's what we, I don't know if Jose told you, but last year was more of an interview. We'd ask you, what's the session shoe and how tall are you? And stuff like that. And and then we, we go ragle all the way. And this year Jose said, no, let's change. So let's change it to a conversation. And so world participants, world talking because that's what it's, it is going to be, is what they said is, is every one of us is going to follow his path. Is every one of us going to take what Christmas with them and follow that path? And I'm very big on ownership. I think that's the answer to everything. But you may not think so until 10 years from now. The good news is you have Luis, you have 10 years. I don't, I I, you know, I'm 72 and I don't plan to live to 83. And so but if it's a lot of you thinking and following your path and finding new things and learning new things, that's the way it's going to go. It's not going to be, oh, this system is holacracy, or the system is the jury guide ideals. Or the system is just every, every, when we get together with people in the foreign community that community would choose what its path is. And halfway through it, you may decide, I don't like this community. They're a bunch of whatever, you know, falling back to city. And you find another community that's further along your way because people will develop differently. You know, you might be going like this and they're back here, you're going, but don't you see this? And they're going, no, no. And you go to another community that's that more advanced or whatever, and maybe you keep up with them or you keep going. It is, it's no telling. And

Jose Leal:

I just, I just want to hear Luis, cause we've been going for a while.

Luis Salas:

No, don't worry. I think more as, as Matt said, is not more that the, the framework views cracy or sociocracy or some my mythology at the end. I think that the, the main thing, or the main attitude is the, the openness and the comprehension and the <inaudible>, which we shared to the world. Because at the end I, I, I have a interview like some, some weeks ago, and they told me, what you do many, why do you do many things? And I said, I, I think, I know a superhero, I know [INAUDIBLE] I, it's not like, you know, this is the path, but at the end, we always, we all have a conscious that telling us that we can do better. That telling us that, okay, I can do something for that, for that people, or I can learn, or I can hear better. And sometimes we, we, you know, we put the lens on our conscience too, and we forget because it's, it's the easiest thing to do. You know, be comfortable. Don't disturb anybody, don't do anything, you know, follow the, the tia. And at the end, I, I think that we all know internally that if, if we do a good life in, in the way that okay I do the things that my conscious tell me. And I, I was not only eager I help and I try to do my best, and we can answer now. And we say, okay, I in that way too I'm, it's not easy, but at the end, if we, we are open, we, we going to find the, the path. And every organization, every person has their own time. So at the end you know, I think that our generation, sometimes we lose sight. You know, you, you see in the Middle Ages that people build Azure. So build something, a monument, and they even don't see finish it, but they believe I'm doing this for the next generation to come. You know? So I think we have also have that mindset. I mean, we are enjoying, we are enjoying the, the, the trip. You enjoy the way, but there's many things that we will not see, or at least we will not see well distributed. But mm-hmm. <Affirmative> what I enjoy that way, and then I am trying to be sincere with, with myself and that way. And I know many people that are also doing the same thing and finding the way. So, and that things that have many consequences such as we see now that there's many like sort of freelancers or people, okay. We, you have, you can have more works in order to, you know, to develop in many other things in your life. Not everything is work. So I think that is a good symptom or a consequence of, of thing that people want to develop many, many ways. And if they be with ourselves like five years working and working in, in some that, you know, enjoy that five years too and comprehend too that, that that person can in some years ago and enjoy some years, go to another country or do, you know, their entrepreneur thing. And you know I think that we have to change a little bit of that. We, we don't possess the people. We are not the controllers of the people. We are, you know, the companion. We are some kind of pilgrims in this world, you know? I think we are kind of transit more and more and more to that mindset and that that also you know, be be have that privilege to myself to sort of, of doing this thing. So, you know I think that the more years to come, we'll be very excited to have many conversations around and say, Hey, what, what we're learning through, through all of it,

Matt Perez:

Exciting. It will be, you're at the edge and you're, you're tittering on the edge. That's exciting.

Jose Leal:

There's so much. There's the excitement of the, of the going through it, right? And yeah. And there's difficult days and there's, you know, exciting days and, and all of that. But I think there's when we can just pull back a little bit and have a conversation like this and think about how much of this is already happening, right? Like it's, people like us have had the privilege of, of seeing this transition happening all over the world. We've, you, you, you talked about being in Spain and, and about being in, in other parts of Europe and, and you're in Mexico, you've been here in the States, you know that there are movements like this. There are radicals in every corner of this world.

Matt Perez:

I call them [INAUDIBLE]

Jose Leal:

They're, they're getting there, they're getting there. But, but I think, like, we don't always appreciate it, right? We have the privilege of speaking to you today and recognizing us and you, right? Like seeing in you what I've become, right? Yeah. And, and, and that's there's, there's a privilege in that and there's a privilege in being able to recognize that I've changed, if you understand what I'm saying. It's, it's seeing, seeing you, seeing me in you, if you understand. Yeah. That to me, especially, I was at a conference in Lisbon in October, and it was powerful to see other people seeing that in themselves and, and being able to, to, to recognize each other without a word, just knowing, you know, you too have this energy in you and you too are ready to, to do. And, and so I think there's so much that happens verbally us trying, us doing, us doing podcasts, and us doing this and us doing that. And there's so much that happens in being and just being ourselves and recognizing that, that, that we are, we collectively are going through a journey.

Luis Salas:

We are, we are. That kind of us mirrors, you know I, I feel this vibe too. For example, when we meet with TEDx things, the ERs around the world or the responsive conference, you know you feel or with, with my former alloy of, of Navarra, you know, that they, there's like a you know limo there. And there's a phrase that I would say, we don't know each other, but we, you know, you know, I don't know you where you come, but you feel what? We feel it and you live what we live in that place. Even we are from different generations. But, you know and I, and I feel you, and I can say also now this time with you Jose and Matt feel also that okay, we are, but as I said, I'm coming back to to this phrase that we don't believe in change until we have a, like this inner change that it's conscious, you know, like, okay, everybody's is, is, you know, fighting. Everybody's trying to do your life to find ourselves in this world. So until we are conscious of it, we see, start to see the word differently and say, okay, and you know, because I want the best for me, I want the best for you too. You know? So and we start to to hear the, or all the employees or, or, or people are peers and say, okay, we are in this same shit you know, with different characteristics, with different backgrounds, but at the end, I want the best for you because I know you want the best for me too.

Jose Leal:

One of the things I switch, I'm going to switch yeah. For a little bit because Matt and I went to a, a co-op conference a few years ago, and we both walked out of there going, yeah, it, it's co-ownership is, is if we're going to reduce force in, in how we work there is a built in force by the, the structure of ownership, Right? As you know, even in a corporation, we're seeing it now the, the, the fight between Musk, Elon Musk and, and, and the investors and the courts and all of this, because ownership, right? Yeah. the, the, the investors claim ownership. He's you know, a minority investor. He, he wants to take out $58 billion as a payment. So my, the, the, the question that I have is, once you get that, yeah. What we want to do is help each other. How do we help each other when there's still someone who is the boss, who is the owner, who's the, who's in control no matter what, because our system says, if you're the owner, you're in control. Have you, have you thought about that? What, what are your thoughts about that? Because that, that was a, for us, it was a very powerful insight.

Luis Salas:

Yeah. at the end you know, that cures many in my, in my country, you know, you know, you see the different classes, you see the difference between also how the people express. And I said like in this law firm too, with the, you know, the partner and the juniors and you all this hierarchical, and at the end, yeah. If we have this hierarchical thing at the end, we don't believe in that. You know? We don't believe in, in there is a real, real change. I don't know. Through, through the years. I think this always this kind of behavioral and action, for example and we have, I have many examples through, through the years, for example, when, when the philosophers with the Athens, Socrates and [INAUDIBLE] and Plato, they made themselves, and they don't seem like kind of these alumni and teachers, they start like this conversation the Socratic way, you know? And they was very conscious about it, you know, and universities too, when they start, they start, okay, the value of university is to all of, of, of, we look for more true. That's why Harvard, you have dilemma Veritas, you know? Because that was the meaning of the purpose of the universities. But at the end, we materialize the world and we said, okay, the best thing we can do that you are only a resource, only a product, only a thing. And when we see people, I think we can, we can do that. You know, it's, it also has to be a radical change in that way too. Because sometimes we, we have the old school and you know, you have investors and you have to say, okay, you want to, you trust me. How can I give you the, the, the money back? You know, and, and, and try to, to do well, but there's this many things of change. Like we know Patagonia, you know, that they give back to the world. Or for example, you probably know Edo Garel from Freeza and Freeza, they changed. They, they reach a point and they share utilities. I used to work at, at, at, at PepsiCo in, in that time. And they do also sort of that thing, you know, there's many like silent changes. It's not like they're popular. It's not. And I think that thing should stop to be a taboo in order to change, right? When people say for example, oh, you know that in Freeza, this company in one, a big one, do this thing. And they say, oh, really? How can they, so, but you know, sometimes I mean this, this conversation, this podcast, everything, everything of this helps because, you know, here in Monterrey for example, there's many good, good people at work, like many things, but we don't know the history of it. You know? So if we can start telling the stories of what's happening, I don't know, it was like something like Ting. But there's many example like that of, of big. So I think that will help to, in order to be, I don't know, it would be sometimes mainstream, but at least be more normal and then say, okay, there is, there is a way. So I, I think I, I, I mean I, I, I love the co-ownership how, how it works. For example there already is also kind of that sort too. You know, we have sales management counselor, we [INAUDIBLE] also do that. We all very transparent and say, okay, this was the project. We were that, and we share the same amount that was happening when I was in lease law firm. We were juniors. We have a big, big project. We work a lot. And then say, and we receive the same salary and you see the partners and went, oh, something is not fair here. So you feel like used, used it. And when we say Polman, I say, I don't want that kind of consultancy. I want the same level of it, you know? And so we are not that big, but at the end when we have a project, everyone shares the same, the same, you know? So I think it's a fair thing to do. I do in the, you know, small scale, but I know that it could be implemented by not in the, in a big scale. So Right. It, it's possible. Yeah.

Matt Perez:

Well, I, I don't know if Jose told you we have an app. Developed in, in Hermosillo. Are you, you're in Monterrey?

Luis Salas:

Yeah. The other side of the north.

Matt Perez:

Is oh. So we had an app that was all very still in, in, in diapers. It is for people to give each other recognition of the contribution. So even though you have the same title, it could be that you do more or more significant work than the other. Sometimes with the same title, you, you do one line of code and it changes everything for the good. And sometimes the guy next door to you does one leg code, he screws up everything. It's because our, our background, you know, where we come from and stuff like that. But when it comes to money, which is power, you know, coin power people react differently. We, we had at Nearsoft or the company that was with before, we distributed so much of the, of the money let me explain. So money came in, I keep on living in bank account, and then we'd say most of my partner, 'cause I didn't follow it closely, say, oh, we, I think we take 40% for next year, at least 60% to distribute and sometimes be the other way, and stuff like that. And and we all divided by end. So if there were a hundred people, a hundred dollars, everybody got a dollar. And including the lady [INAUDIBLE], now, she, she got the same, I guess, but a lot of people didn't like it a lot. People said, well, I contributed more, I went to to for four years or five years or whatever. And they didn't like it. And come to find out that because money's is power, basically, it's different as if we had a hundred eggs, we'll get one. Yeah, that's okay. But now you can take this coin power and do it yourself a better deal and stuff like that. That was different. So they've since reverted to giving people different amounts. Pretty much determined by committee. It, it is going to halfway house. But and, and our thing is, look, everybody gets as much as other people recognize a contribution, not me, my pets and and stuff like that is more, you know, you see something that it, you consider a contribution to, to give credit to a person, recognize that contribu at the end of the year they're going to appreciate it more because they do what resonate.

Matt Perez:

So in case of the [INAUDIBLE] I was in Hermosillo years ago, and this young woman had been dumped by her boyfriend. Walked one day and said, what were I spiritual? I don't know what it said. But anyway, she was, and she was, I was here and she was, you know, like there I could see her playing a assault there. And she was like, you know, but I never thought anything of it. And Rosa, the same woman that I mentioned before, the clean, she went one way, got words with her, and she came back and she started talking to her and and said, no, me, it is going to be better worry about it. You'll find better man. And stuff like that. And by the end of the, of the conversation, she said, this guy, you know, he's missing out on this on me and stuff like that. She was more of herself, that was the contribution. It had nothing to do with coding, nothing to do with anything, but it was the freeing contribution to this person. If I had the application there, I would go. You know? And so contribution come in many forms in many, many forms. Yeah. I was said once, once somebody's giving their rest somebody else because they have a good body it, if that's what makes extra day fine, go with it. It's not, it is not a whole lot of money. Hmm. And it is not going to, it is not going to break the back. So understanding what its contradiction most more ways than just the action. But it told me that Prova was more interested in the person. That's what resonated with her. So if I wanted to talk to her, I had to relate it to the impact that it was going to have on people. And people think what resonates with them, and that's fine. That's, and, and you can't force that. No. It's got to be this way. And investors in the No, no, no. They tell her how it's going to impact the people around her. And that's as valuable more than one line code, one line of code or whatever is my, my, that worst thing is that.

Jose Leal:

I just want to remind us that it's past the hour and we've already been talking to an hour for an hour and three minutes, which went very, very fast. Luis thank you so much. Matt. Did you want to introduce next week's?

Matt Perez:

Yeah. So next week Radical world is Rodney Evans. Hey, he's, oh, okay. Rodney Female Evans. And she's, she says Stewart at the ready. I have no idea what that is, but we're going to find out from her. And we'll be at the ready to have a conversation and, and see where it takes us.

Luis Salas:

She's, she's great. She's, she's, she's awesome. And she's very, very funny, you know, you, you going to love it. I really you know, invite the audience to, to be the connect with you. You will. Okay. Enjoy it a lot.

Jose Leal:

Be with us as well. Luis, I I thank you very much for being vulnerable, being yourself, being someone who is doing not only beautiful work, but is doing it in a beautiful way. And, and I think that's, that's very obvious. It's the first time, other than the conversation we had pre, pre-show, it's the first time I got the opportunity to meet you and to talk to you. I hope it's not the last because it was very much a valuable conversation for me. So thank you.

Luis Salas:

I can say the same to you, to beautiful people and thanks for all your work. You have been, you also an, an inspiration for the coming generations. And I say we are the same age at the end, we have the same, the same vibe, the same thing. And we learn from each other. So I really enjoyed the conversation, even was one more than one hour for me. It was like, you know, enjoying here. It was, it was, thank you was it was quick for, for your trust, for everything, for your openness and thank you Jose and Matt.

Jose Leal:

By the book

Matt Perez:

Yeah. I used to have it stuck in the back and, and it was like, how can it bring it forward? I just sold in my hand. No, it's important because it gives the basis of where it came from, what transformation was, and Jose and my son and I had an hour or more every week a conversation and the ideas transformed there. Yeah. Conversation with human beings are very important. And I had an idea of what it was and Jose had another and we kind of melted the whole thing together and it was very valuable, valuable that way.

Jose Leal:

So, well thank you again Luis. And thank you for waking up Matt. 'cause It was nice having you. And thank you for the folks that joined us today, and we'll see you next week at the same time, in the same place at the Radical World Podcast. Thank you. See you soon.