Meet The Radical Pioneers

Tullio Siragusa:

And here we are. Welcome everyone. My name is Tullio Siragusa. I am here to welcome the brand new Radical World podcast, and today we're going to launch this new series, this new podcast, speaking with the, the OG of radical, the pioneers of Radical World. I'm speaking with Matt Perez and Jose Leal. Welcome. Looking forward to chatting with both of you.

Matt Perez:

Same here.

Tullio Siragusa:

So, before we go into how this whole thing began, why it began, and the story behind, even as a book let's talk about what is radical? What is radical world? Give us a little your view on what radical world is to you for the audience benefit.

Matt Perez:

You want to take it on, or Jose, or do you want me to start?

Jose Leal:

Well, for me, radical world is, it's the goal of what we want to be. We want to have a world that is radical, A world that's tied to who we are as people, bound to us and our lives. Not just thinking about work, not just thinking about us personally, but how our world works. And that's part of what's, I, I think we've transitioned from, from this idea that we are just working on radical companies or just working on radical purpose, but to think about the fact that we're working on seeing and becoming a radical world.

Tullio Siragusa:

Cool. What about you, Matt? What does it mean to you?

Matt Perez:

Primarily in alternatives? We're so radical worlds is an world is an alternative. It eventually will become what is describing maybe. But right now, the only alternatives you have is, oh, I, I need money for this. I need money for that. I need money for the other. And and our answer is no. Do you have an alternative, which is working with the scheme? So it's less capital intensive, it is more contribution intensive. And so we recognize contributions, again, going back to the people are the force behind businesses, people are be, are the force behind companies. And and in fact, we chose the word company 'cause in Latin Vietnamese people that break bread together. And and that's, that's what it is really all about, is we're just people. We break, we break, put bread together, get together two things, and hierarchy and all that stuff is in the way. Is in the way. So that's, that's what regular world means to me, is an alternative to the current world. But they're going to be side by side for a long time.

Tullio Siragusa:

Great. So I've heard a lot of desire for authenticity, for being real, for genuine connection. And so, you know when I joined you guys for this crazy journey about six years ago, each of you had a story as to why this was meaningful. So I'd love to hear, for the benefit of the audience, why, why radical world? What prompted this? Let's start with you, Jose.

Jose Leal:

Well I think I've, I've told my story a number of times, but I had been an entrepreneur since I was 16. I had started a number of companies, one of which I sold. I got into corporate. And after 10 years, I was burnt out. I didn't realize I was burned out. I thought I was just fed up with the company and they were a bunch of whatevers. But but I, I was burnt out and I quit the industry. I quit the company and, and started another startup, which I'd, you know, prepped for if you're a good entrepreneur, you know, you, you prepped for it before you leave the last one. And turned out I couldn't get psyched up for it. I couldn't get motivated every time. Things got a, a little bit promising. As a startup, you know, you have lots of times that things don't look very promising, and then they'd look promising, and that's when you get the energy and that's when you, you advance things. And for me, I wound up stepping back rather than stepping forward and kept doing that and realizing I, that working for corporate did a lot more to me than I thought it had. Mm-Hmm. It had reduced my confidence, reduced my, my motivation. And I started on a journey of why did that happen? Why did working for a corporation change me in the way that I couldn't even know who I was anymore? So that process started me on a search of, well, what's happening when we go to work, what's happening to us in our society? And years later ran into to Matt and started this journey from there, but there was, there was a lot of soul searching and understanding what it is that we're doing to people through work and other aspects of our society.

Tullio Siragusa:

It's fascinating how many people I've spoken to over the years who've had similar success in the corporate world, but there's been a high cost associated with that success. And sometimes that cost is significant enough to change someone's psyche. So okay. Let's hear a little bit about Matt. How did you join this, this this journey and why?

Matt Perez:

Well, it was funny, but it was, it was about, it was about selling the company, the software company we both worked in. After we sold it, I started thinking, why am I getting more than the people that did the real growth? You know, I did a lot of starting fine. We created the company, went through bad times, good times, and, and all that. But excuse my French. And but I started thinking, why, why am I getting so much? Because I own the thing? And and, and that's why I started thinking that ownership is part of the problem, what we call fiat ownership as part of the problem. And and very intelligent people, very, you know, world renowned, intelligent people can't see past ownership. I wrote down the other day that, that we're in the fiat world of our own making. This is not, you know, somebody going into the vacuum and deciding what it is. And but the walls of this cocoon is fiat ownership. And and, and, and the conversations that Jose and, and my son Adrian and I were having, it came out. I didn't know what it was. Okay. I, it wasn't like I woke up one day, that whole thing in my head. I didn't know what it was, but in the conversation it came out that there are lots of things that are taken for granted that don't, are not constructive. I mean, businesses, it won't make a difference between business and company. Businesses are the worst enemies of businesses because they, they, they want to do everything according to the owner. And you have a hierarchy, which there's sub owners and, and all that stuff. And it's always according to them. So the only, the only goal they have is making money. That's it. Making money for the shareholders. And and they try to best I'm sure to, to say it and communicating,

Jose Leal:

Hi Carlos.

Tullio Siragusa:

Hang on, hang on. So that he can cut that piece. Okay. Go.

Matt Perez:

Okay. And but you, it is, it is a hold back. People talk about innovation, for example.

Tullio Siragusa:

Yeah. We're going to talk a little bit more about fiat and what it is, and follow up episodes. I'm going to plant a seed for that, for the audience to come back to learn about that. But what I've heard from both of you is this idea that even though at the heel of a lot of success, you felt very unfulfilled. That's what I've heard. Very loud and clear.

Jose Leal:

So, yeah. And I'm, I'm, I'm going to add to that Tullio, because I, I think there's you know, I want to speak for Matt for a minute. You know, Matt worked in in a corporation and before doing a startup Nearsoft, right? And he'd experienced that. So that's the reason he did Nearsoft as a self-managed organization in part, right? So his experience and in moving from, from a corporate environment to a an environment that he had some control over, he and his partner and, and the fact that he was introduced to this idea of self-management is what brought that about for me. I didn't have that experience. I didn't have the experience of running, but when I did my startups, I always had this inkling that that's kind of what I wanted. I just didn't know what it was or how to do it. It was, it was sort of like, I remember with my last startup the one that I couldn't get traction on, what I found was that I said to my partners, I said, what if we do this in a way where we're, you know, it's all of us have the ability to, to, to run the show and so forth. And they're like, no, you're the CEO and this is this, and that's the, that. And I was like, okay. And one of my partners was our lawyer. So, you know, it was like, okay, right. That's the best way to do it. So, very often I think people have this sense that they want something different. And I certainly did, but it wasn't until after corporate where I realized what the difference was and, and what we needed to do that was different. And, and to speak one little bit more about how Matt and I got together, it was me having conversations with Doug Kirkpatrick from Morningstar Tomato Farms and, and saying, I, there's this movement, this self-management movement, and, and I'm trying to figure out a, something more than that. It's, it's something more than just self-management. And he says, well, I think you should talk to Matt because he's thinking about something more than just self-management as well.

Tullio Siragusa:

So let's continue with this journey. Also, I'm probably thinking when y'all started this, you probably had hair, right?

Jose Leal:

No, no. He, he pulled all of my hair out. I used to have hair.

Tullio Siragusa:

Alright, so let's talk a little bit about this one life meeting that was a kind of a instrumental pivotal moment for both of you. Was it not? Tell us a little bit about what happened there.

Matt Perez:

Well, we had, we had another thing in common, which is we both had read a lot about neuroscience and stuff like that, hoping that the brain has something to do with what we do. And, and it does. But not as significant as, as we all thought before we started. So we had that in common. We started talking about it. He shared some things that he had done and Jose did. And and this will get us talking, and we were thinking of, of a startup, and we can do this and we can put these things in the hierarchy. And we tried all kinds of ideas. And what it came down to is that the system, the system we live in, the fiat system that we live in to send letters to it, it, it makes it invisible to us. It, it's like, no, no, you, you have to have a corporate lawyer and contracts and somebody has to be a CEO and somebody that's bullshit. That's, that goes against the nature of building something bigger in itself. And we didn't, it was, we started before the pandemic. 'cause I, I was, I remember meeting at a coffee shop and and then we started doing it like this remotely. And that's what we included Adrian. And then it was a three way thing. And that, that quite helped that quite put the, the, you know, the gut, the, the frails on it of what we had to do and the things that we didn't like that we had to fix. And we had lots of arguments. We still have a lot, lots of arguments. But in the end, we came up with something different. I don't, I don't want to call it better, but it's different. And we need to try something different.

Jose Leal:

To answer your question about that meeting, I think what we found out was that there was a lot of people around the world that wanted something different too. Yeah. Right. And, and they were so excited about the idea that we could do something different that within I think about three weeks some of our colleagues from Europe decided, Hey, let's jump on a plane. <Laugh> land in, in San Jose, California where Matt and I both lived at the time, and you came up from Southern California and a number of other people from, from local here. And we had the first meeting where it was super energizing to connect with people that had a similar passion. And, and we didn't have the radical brand at that time. And we didn't even know exactly what it is that we were trying to do. But it was the beginning of a community, the beginning of a network, and the beginning of a, of an understanding that it's not just us. That that was super invigorating. That everyone had their own ideas, had their own ways of seeing the world, had their own experience, but most importantly, they all wanted to see something different. They weren't happy with the status.

Tullio Siragusa:

I remember a circle up check-in. There were a lot of crying open hearts in that circle of check-in it was very touching moment. So from there, all these folks got together and started thinking about maybe creating something, a movement or a manifesto of sorts. And radical purpose came out of that. Tell us a little bit about that journey. What is radical purpose? How did that come to be? What were some of the milestones that were put in place as a result of those efforts? Because that was a foundational to everything else that happened as well. So maybe walk us through a little bit of that before we talk about the book too.

Jose Leal:

Yeah. Well, I think that because Matt and I see the world somewhat differently for me, the, the idea that what we were talking about was the people, it was, it was us, right? Understanding us better. And I think Matt was more focused on the company how do we reorganize companies? How do we change companies? And so I started taking some of the folks that came from that initial meeting and others, and bringing them together to have conversations around what slowly became radical and radical purpose. And, and we tried all kinds of ideas of what that would look like. But the idea was if we as human beings are what motivates work and we have these innate desires, these innate feelings, these this energy to do things, we need to understand that before we can understand what an organization can do with that. Cause If we don't understand that, then the organization part of it is, is at a loss. It's a bit of, of sort of a, a chicken and egg. What comes first, right? If people aren't energized how can they how, how can we count on them to be organized in a way that is productive, that is beneficial to the community? So the work was to explore that. What do, what's, what does this world of our internal selves a radical purpose, meaning that we're born with our unique pattern of, of behaviors and desires and feelings. And that that unique pattern di dictates to some degree what it is that we're good at or are going to do or be. And that work continued over the years. We've had ambassadors, we've done dozens and dozens of workshops and, and learned through that process around what, what radical purpose is at an individual level, but also how it relates to how we do work.

Tullio Siragusa:

Yeah. I remember you know, actually thinking about it, hindsight, 2020 the effort and the work that went into that is probably a great use case for design thinking because there was so much time spent being curious and asking questions and being curious and asking more questions and having conversations and going back and forth, which is part of the empathizing stages that it really informed everything else. And there's some great things that came out that. Let's talk about that. One of the things came out of these this understanding of the key elements that makes highly engaged organizations, and that also ties into individual needs. Also some really great work came out of it from a self-assessment tool that came out of it. Similar Torey or Briggs or disc, etcetera. Except this is a lot deeper. So talk, let's talk a little bit about some of that effort, the people involved and what that was like. You know, getting to this place of the, the radical purpose manifesto as well. The manifesto of interdependence great work that took years to do. It wasn't rushed. While some of us were more business minded, we wanted to rush it, it was always like, no, no, no, let's spend a little more time. So let's talk a little bit about what was that experience like? Maybe let's start with Matt for get your thoughts on that.

Matt Perez:

You want to hear from me on that?

Tullio Siragusa:

Developing the, the manifesto, the Interdependence Manifesto. Tell us a bit about what that experience was like for you.

Matt Perez:

No, I wasn't part of that. At least I don't remember it that way.

Tullio Siragusa:

We were all part of that.

Jose Leal:

Yeah. Well, Matt, Matt was, maybe. Well, so I, I think that speaks to, I, I think this is an important part. 'cause It speaks to our, our focus is a little bit different individually, right? When we were talking about later, when we were talking about an the book I was very passionate about the idea that, that we the work we had been doing with, with radical purpose, the meaning impacting belonging, becoming was a critical part of understanding motivation. And, and so in the book meaning and belonging became two key parts of what we need to serve in individuals that the organization actually needs to serve that part. And, and so that work was around, not necessarily the organization, but understanding us individually, understanding our needs, being able to, you, you talk about the, the radical purpose profile, being able to, to have a tool that points to, you know, where, what part of me is there that I may not know that I could speak to others about, but also the idea that what we want to do is, is, you know, with the interdependence, it's, it was the idea that we could create a document that stated that we want to work together as equals, that we want to be with each other as equals not the same. Very importantly But as equals and the relationship to life. Because all too often we forget that we're life. And so that work was as you said, and I thank you for that because it was a long time, it was an exploration and it was you know, we, we had folks from Italy and folks from the Netherlands and Brazil. And lots of people contributed to that in many, many ways.

Tullio Siragusa:

Yeah. I love the discovery that came out of that, which was about how we are very close to nature. Independence is just like nature, which is quite, could also be another use case for the value of servant leadership, how nature is in constant service to itself. And it, it, it never stops serving the need of itself. It is constantly giving. It doesn't say, Hey, I'm lesser. It just gives, gives, gives. And that whole ecosystem continues and lasts forever. But yet for some reason, we as humans, even though we're part of that, that nature, we don't act that way. No, something's broken because we don't act that way.

Jose Leal:

We've, we've learned not to act that way. Exactly. We're taught not to act that way.

Tullio Siragusa:

So let's continue a little further down the line. You talked about the book. So a lot of work went into this, A lot of discoveries. Great. self-managed practitioners, even some psychologists participated in this. It was an incredible international effort. And, and then the pinnacle was the release of the book Radical Companies. Let's tell the audience a little bit about what that was like what your intention was behind that and, and your intended outcomes. Anything you could share about that journey with the audience would be great.

Matt Perez:

Well, the way the book started, it was about more of a homage to the Nearsoft that was, and how he, he was inspired by Maverick REO Simos first book and, and all that. But then during the conversation, this is an important part. People have to be, have to learn new habits granted, but until they get together, nothing happens. There's no action. That's my take. So it's a committee that makes things happen. And for the sake of, of where I was heading and we were heading companies became name of the, of the title these days are, are a lot more relaxed about using communities, the, the term communities. But it's the same thing. It is a companies made up a community of people that embody it. And that's what came out of many, many conversations. Many, many arguments, many, many pastries and coffees and things like that. So when did exactly happen? I don't know, but at some point it, it starts to shift. It starts to, to make more sense by shifting that we don't need bosses. We don't need hierarchy. We're all adults. And if at home I buy this refrigerator instead of that refrigerator, it is a decision. It is a $3,000 decision that my wife and I make. And I'm not her boss. God knows I'm not her boss. And and she's not my boss either. And God knows.

Tullio Siragusa:

At least you think.

Matt Perez:

And, and it's more of a, well, this one has handled this way, and it is up and down that you make a lot of big decisions. Buying a car is a big decision. Buying a house in this neighborhood is a big decision. And you make all those without a boss. So why, why not it work? And once you're thinking that way, it, it changes it. And it changed. The book was written like three times. It changed the direction of what you want to write about. So first it was Noma yourself, then it became the book that it is today, which is what do we have now? There's still the first party part, part of no match to where we came from, because that was part of the experience that I lived. And but the co-management is not enough. When people say, and we know some of the characters, you and I to the, that said things like we want people to feel like they're owners of the company, making owners of the company. That, that's, that's the way to do it. No, no, because there's too many of views and too many of ours and all kinds of excuse come up. And that's part of what's holding it back, is want people to be, to think like owners, but not be owners.

Tullio Siragusa:

Yeah. You can't pay lip service to it.

Matt Perez:

It's like you can live in your house, but it's not your house. It is you can, you can cohabitate with your wife, but it's not your wife. It's like what.

Tullio Siragusa:

Makes no sense.

Matt Perez:

That it makes no sense. And he holds back business. He holds back the trade that you and I can have at a large scale or a small scale. And that was the important part of, of that book. The, the thing that Yeah. Was driving that book.

Tullio Siragusa:

That's probably the most disillusioning thing. People experience this idea. They go into an organization where they talk about co-ownership, and they want you to be excited, like you're the co-owner, but you have zero co-ownership makes absolutely zero sense.

Jose Leal:

Or you have, you know, 0.001% of some shares somewhere that Right. Might make you a little bit of money, but doesn't actually give you any ability to.

Tullio Siragusa:

Say it's a hoax. It's a hoax for the majority of the people. Tell us a little bit about your experience, Jose, go ahead.

Matt Perez:

I want to, I want to cite two examples here. There's ESOPs I don't know what it stands for anymore. It employees, something is a retirement thing where you own the financial part of the company, but you don't make any decisions and you don't participate in making this, those decisions. And there's co-ops, which has the financial thing, but we're all equal. And there's a lot of reasons why we don't like equal, because we're not equal in every organization. We, we we're part of we participate more and more. We make contributions more in one than the other. And so you have to have a basis for what ownership, how do you earn that ownership? And neither of those two models there. Neither of those two models.

Tullio Siragusa:

What just happened.

Jose Leal:

It's, it's this, you know, when we do this, that

Tullio Siragusa:

Makes the party happen. Woo hoo there. It's

Matt Perez:

One is balloons and two is. Anyways neither one of those is, is a complete organization. Now, every time we talk about this, when we, when we talk to people, oh, that's like co-ops. No, it's not. It's not. Because co-ops follow the, the, the, we have to hire managers tell us what to do, and the ones who do, don't do that, do something different. But they never get to the point of, we, we own our lives and our lives and this is part of our lives. So we, we should own that and manage that. And and that's the conclusion we came from. We need a different mind.

Tullio Siragusa:

The reality is people are speaking very loudly that that's what they want. Which is why the gig economy is so big. Nobody wants to work for an employer. I'll be a contractor, but I work for myself. And, you know, people want that. So, but before we go into final, the final part of I'm going to start again. 'cause Carlos came in. So you can help that out. The point is, the, the bottom line is people actually want more of that, which is why the gig economy is is growing so much, right? People would rather work for themselves and be a contractor than actually be an employee. That's a big movement. Companies that aren't paying attention to that, you're kind of missing the whole point of why it's happening. But before we go into the origin of radical world we, we've talked about the beginnings here the radical purpose declaration of interdependence, how that came to be and how that informed a lot of the things that we're doing today. And also the book Radical companies. Before we go into speaking about the next iteration, the radical world initiative I want to ask Jose to give me your thoughts on the book itself and what that experience was like for you, and anything you want to share with the audience

Jose Leal:

Yeah, thank you. So the, the book itself was, was a process of codifying a lot of what we had already talked about, right? So we, we had different ideas and argued about one thing or another. And, and, you know, just thinking, what, what is this world that is emerging? Because when you're in a role of trying to help something emerge, the realization is we're not making it happen, but we're observing it as it's happening. And maybe we can make some tweaks to it. Two things, as Matt pointed out, two things we could observe. One, the self-management movement was picking up. It has been picking up ever since the eighties, right? The issue of self-management as a movement that was happening to us wasn't enough. It, we felt two things. One, that the idea of self-management was two untethered. It was sort of like, self-management is just, it's just everything. What's self-management mean? It, it wasn't, it wasn't easy to grasp. It was like self-management. It could be anything. And when we started talking about what it could be, we, we realized that we were really talking about the fact that we didn't see self-management as something that I was doing or the company was doing, but something that we were doing together. And so the idea of co-management became something that came out of that process of working on the book co-management, meaning that we manage together, not I self-manage or that the company manages itself but that we co-manage. The other thing was that, you know, I, I said to Matt, I'm going to go to a co-op conference and, and Matt's like, co-op conference that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. I said, yeah, it does. It has a lot to do with what we're talking about. Come and see. And what we did was we got there and we felt like we were at home. Like within minutes we were talking to people and, and riffing off of each other in a way that it was like that meeting, that early meeting that we discussed earlier, it, it was like, this is different. It's not the same group, but, but it still feels like home. And, and what was it was the realization that we were talking about co-ownership. And so the book didn't start about being about co-management and co-ownership, but by the time we finished, it was not only about co-management and co-ownership, it was also about this idea of a company without bosses and without employees. Because we also decided that the process through this writing of the book, that we really didn't want to see even the employee class. 'cause Self-Management sort of has been talking about getting rid of the upper echelon of a company. Let's get rid of the senior management and the management and all of that, and let's make it a, a flatter organization. Things like that. Many different self-management movements have been talking about that. But what we realized was, no, no, no, it's not about getting rid of those guys and keeping all these employees. It's about getting rid of the employees too, because we should be co-owners, not employees.

Tullio Siragusa:

That's really the key, isn't it? So let's talk about that. You know let's talk about radical world. What's that story now? You know, we've seen this evolution, we've heard about it, how wanted to make a difference, wanted to really help connect with our human roots, understand the needs, the individual needs, and finding a way to move into a model where everyone's equal but contributes differently, but also has a sense of ownership, real ownership, so that there's no employee or in line monarchs, as we often used to call it. There's just people working together, design things together. So let's talk about radical world. What's its mission? What's the end goal? Or at least the mission or vision for it? Share that, please, with the audience.

Jose Leal:

Well, I think at some point in the last year or year and a half, we, we started to realize that, and this is after the book, that it wasn't just a matter of the structure of organizations, but the, the lens that people use to see organizations and to see the world. And what started when Matt coined Fiat, it was describing the system motion, the backyard, and we were describing, we were. So after, after we wrote the book over the last year, year and a half, we started to realize that it wasn't just about the structures that we proposed because we were proposing new structures and we're proposing new ways of, of, of running or companies and, and of co-ownership and co-management. But it was also about this idea that we, we had a, a different lens. We needed to change the lens with which we saw things. Matt, when he coined fiat initially, he was describing that we were, we were talking about a system, this fiat system, this system of control, the system of imposing on us. And we realized that actually the system of imposing on us was built by people who thought that we needed to impose on each other. That, that it is this fiat lens that causes us to see the world as a place that requires us to be forceful, to control. And, and so a lot of conversations between us about force and about this process would really emerged after the book. And we realized what we've been talking about, both radical purpose and radical companies is just a, the, the, the, the parts of what is a radical world, because we need to change a lens on the world, right? And I think Matt's got the lenses there as we speak. And so we started, we started using this, this concept of the dark lenses are this negative view of the world or a fiat lens. And that lifting up those dark lenses is what we're talking about. It's not about changing anything to start, it's just about realizing we don't have to be forceful with each other. We don't have to build systems of control. And that started the process of inquiring into then what is it that we need to talk about this? Because this is fundamental to the conversation, talking about the fiat lens and the fiat world that we live in. And the radical lens and the radical world that we seek is the starting point to this conversation. Yes, we're going to need to understand a radical purpose. Yes, we're going to need to understand how to create radical companies, but if we don't have a lens that helps us do that, it's going to be very, very difficult. And so thus radical world, and that was aided by the work with, with our friends at Sipe, who have been great in, in helping us both rebrand and create a new, a new image for what is a new conversation that we want to have.

Tullio Siragusa:

And with that, I'm going to invite people to come back to the next episode where you'll dig in a lot more into what is fiat. We're not talking about the car brand, by the way. What is fiat? What is fiat work? What is the legacy of fiat? How is fiat woven into the educational system? How is fiat showing up even, and how we parent and finally fiat in companies? That's going to be a digging conversation about Fiats and what that looks like. Before we part for today, this has been a great conversation about the evolution of radical world, beginning of this coming together and this inaugural podcast, the Radical World Podcast. Any final words of wisdom from both of you? For those who are listening before we bid our goodbyes, until the next time, please share your thoughts.

Matt Perez:

The only, the only thing that I could advise people this or you know, say to people is, understand you live in the system. Understand you live in the story. We, we don't, we don't know how to talk about anything unless we have a story attached to it. And you live in the story. And that story, like I said before, very smart people miss the edges of that story and not far it can go. And I'm just reading a book that's gets really close. So what we're talking about, but they, they, ownership is given, it takes ownership fee, fiat ownership as a given and doesn't, cannot see beyond that. It is like talking to fishes about water. It's like, what's, no, what's water? Well, the stuff you live in and you live in and you eat from and stuff, no, that's just you, you don't talk about water. You talk about, I live in here and I crab in here and I do this. And we're like that. We're like fish trapped in our own fish farm, if you will. So that's, that's my, so, so start looking around and start looking for things that you take for granted. In fact, the way that we approach this thing is go to the root. What is the root of the problem? And that is really difficult. Really, really difficult because you tend to stop about 10 levels above the, the, the roots. And, and that by the way, where the name radical comes from, it doesn't mean we're going to kill people or anything like that, but it is go back to the red, to the, to the source of, of the problem. And you can figure that out.

Jose Leal:

I think Matt hit it right on the head. When we said we're going to call this Radical, it was two reasons. We're talking about a fundamental change, which is what radical means, and we need to change from the root. And the truth is, we didn't even know what that meant at the time. And it's only after years of work that we realize that the root isn't just the root of the structure of a company. It isn't just the root of our motivation, it's the very story that we see the world through. And that that story is what we need to switch as well. So we have to switch how we see the world, how we act in the world, and how we organize the world. And that's, I think, the story of, of Radical World.

Tullio Siragusa:

I want to thank you both today. And so I want to leave the audience with this. If you want to change your story or you want to get out your fish pond, an expansive mind is waiting for you. Just tune into the Radical World podcast as more topics like this are covered with more guests and discover maybe your own radical roots. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks Matt and Jose, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for inviting me to launch this first podcast on the series of Radical World podcast. And until next time, take care, everyone.