Subscription Economics Taking Over Post-Covid

Matt Perez(00:09):

Hi, my name is Matt Perez, and we're in rHatchery live, and we're here with Kendell Johnson, who's our guest, and Jose Leal my partner in crime here. And we're going to be talking about mostly ownership, but a lot of other things. Someone could be me or, well, let's, let's see, let's see. I don’t know, some, somebody's echoing. So I'm going to so, so Kendell, why don't you tell us about yourself, your business, and things about yourself so we can get to know you better?

Kendell Johnson (01:01):

Thank you. Thank you, Jose.

Kendell Johnson (01:07):

So, my story and journey began almost 20 years ago. Young student out of university in Montreal, and quickly became obsessed with technology and all things cloud and really had the first cut of understanding business at Oracle, then IBM and other various organizations. But I really, really fell in love with tech, with Salesforce, right? Someone who you guys I know very, very, I know you guys know very well had a chance to work on a lot of the top executives there intimately. And they trusted me in opening up the Montreal office as well as other various important projects. And that's when I really understood that there was a change happening in, in tech, that subscription, when the cloud was taken over. Fast forward a few years, and we brought in some very cool companies into Canada, like Turro and a few other subscription-based companies. We helped them set up, and really got to know the business, and I then fell in love again with subscription model students of economics and study. And I wanted to go back and understand, Hey, why, why are so many people turned on by this, this, this new phenomenon? And Matt said it fast, it's nothing new, but it was a new push by millennials. And I really dove in into research to find out what is making people tick. What are some of the drivers…

Kendell Johnson (02:58):

What do people look for? And that's one of the things I'm, I'm here to say is that subscription it's certainly not a new phenomenon, but it is, in my opinion here to stay in a new reality for many, many North Americans.

Matt Perez(03:20):

So you really believe that people are not going to own things but subscribe or whatever temporary possession of it. And I think I mentioned this in backstage, that Buck, Mr. Fuller, who's quoted a lot of time says something about lighters, you know, making things lighter, making your house lighter, making your curl lighter. And I don't know how, he meant that, but subscriptions or any kind of temporary possession is a way to make a letter. So, in Airbnb, I owned that house for a week or three days or a month or whatever it is, but I don't have to carry all my furniture over there. I have to carry all my stuff over there. I know people that live off rental furniture and they change it off, and you go into a house like, oh, what happened here? Oh, I, I called 'em, and they brought this stuff in and were very casual about the whole thing. So yeah, I agree with you that that's, that's up. So, what is a subscription? What is a subscriber?

Kendell Johnson (04:41):

Yeah, so a couple of things. I think you're absolutely right there, Matt. One we'll talk about what subscription is in a moment, and, but the root of subscription on the basis of the company is that subscribers, they, they have a lot. And the one thing, the thing that they don't want to worry about anymore is the cost of ownership. There are a lot of costs. It's not just the physical cost, but the mental cost. Now, one of the things that I really love about this industry and my job is that I've made a lot of people, and they said one of two things, I can, it's very hard to afford this lifestyle today, or they're never able to afford this lifestyle today. And both of those, those, those, those many people like that, those, those say personas, they deeply about one, how do we make it so that those who need those particular products, as you said, the Airbnb, the furniture, they have access to it without the mental weight, and then upward mobility for those second persona in terms of either ownership. And we can talk about that in a moment, but also the ability for them to have that plan. Because in today's world, rising interest rates, I'm sure we'll talk about that. And many other rising costs. It's, it's almost unaffordable for many Americans and Canadians to obtain basic cars, basic housing, and even food. And then I, and I, I know that you guys can appreciate that. It's something that we must change.

Matt Perez(06:17):

I don't know, I don't know if you watch John Oliver, but the last episode was in HOAs and some of the terrible things that happened around HOAs. Those are homeowner associations, and the homeowner association, which she's elected, is neighbors and stuff like that. They outsource that process. And of course, those people are money making, and they, they, they basically push people out of the housing and stuff like that for this violation, the violation, and the rules. And you signed a contract. And so, I understand the mental thing. Now we're more into, there's fiat ownership, which is where we live today.

Kendell Johnson (07:06):

That's…

Matt Perez(07:06):

Right. Which is, I own the car, and if you want to buy it, then I have to sell it to you. I own the house, and if you want to buy it, I have to sell it to you. I own the place where you work. If you want to work here, you know, you are going to work here for me you know, eight hours a day or, or more if I can get it out of you. And that's a basic, basic part of the problem, that the whole fiat ownership, which is encased in law, I is, is sacred, right? And we believe that if ownership is good for one person, then it's good for a lot of people, right? And so we, we think that the concept of co-ownership, we all own the place that we work at, we all own the, the car we all own it, it, it is kind of in line with subscription, so you have to pay something. It doesn't come in the blue, but it allows you to have that common ownership if you will.

Kendell Johnson (08:16):

So, for access, you're absolutely right.

Matt Perez(08:18):

Yes, yes, you're right. Access.

Kendell Johnson (08:21):

I'll add that, add to that, Matt, and that, let's call it what it is. It's a sense of power. And you, by owning the A, have power over the asset. If you're the sole owner, yes, if you're renting it out or Airbnb you then receive free value for the time that is, that is rented out. That's, that's how it works today. But I'll challenge that notion that there are many, many folks, millennials, Gen X, who don't even like the concept of fractional ownership. They want even more flexibility. They want the ability to have a subscription model or models that meet their lifestyle. And the reason for that, we'll talk about what we said before, that the ownership concept, it, it boggles 'em down, not only financially, mentally, but the third one is costs. That's a big for a lot of millennials.

Kendell Johnson (09:28):

If I work at this job nine to five, I can't be an influencer. I can't take a vacation. I have to be within promoter nine to five. I'll tell you gentlemen Jose, Matt, that is a huge deal. And the basis of our company that's subscribing, we believe that there is a model for everyone. As an owner. You have the ability to do it. It's, it's not just about ownership. Your intent is to share a product and make it, give that access to multiple folks who will like you said Matt feel that they have the flexibility to access that product at any time that they want and give it back at any time that they don't need it. As a subscriber, you, we are meeting a subscription model and really transforming the concept of ownership and fitting it into that lifestyle that customers want. It's, it's, we spoke about this off the backstage mat, right? Nothing new, but the demand today is, is like no other $1.3 million will be the subscription economy in 2025. Why is that? And there are three main points. One is that lifestyle has certainly changed. We believe mobility in the lifestyle has certainly changed. And the way people look at it, a card is very different, they look at it more like a cell phone. The second is, folks have no choice.

Kendell Johnson (11:13):

My generation, your generation, had more opportunities to own, fit into our lifestyle and grow with it. There's no possibility of that. Now, gentlemen, we really are at a point where interest rates are making it a choice of food or housing, transportation or housing. And the third point is the projection. A lot of younger folks don't know if they're going to see the same wealth that they, your generation have. They really don't. And they need options.

Matt Perez(11:54):

So, I have a friend who's somewhere in Africa right now, but anyways he's from Colombia originally and all that stuff. And what he is doing is comes subscription kind of model where you, you sign up to the service that he offers, and then you ha you have insurance and cars and all this stuff. I don't know about cars and stuff like that, but certainly insurance and a place to work and all that. Anywhere in the world where they're at, you know I should put you both in contact. I think there's a lot of income between us. But

Jose Leal (12:32):

What Kendell just said, and what came to mind was really the work that one of our colleagues in Europe has done, Yuri, and Yuri designed and wrote a book about it, person to person. He designed a model of accounting where the system is where the, the, the, the vehicle, the house is autonomous. In other words, it doesn't have an owner. It has an agreement with a bunch of different owners, a bunch of different people who have access to it, as you pointed out, Kendell. And that because the individual item has its own presence legally then it's not owned per se, it simply has a legal agreement with different participants, people who may use it for a while or may share in the use of it for a while. I, I thought that side is kind of sounded like what you were describing. Obviously, that's looking at an economic system that is more so than just converting the systems that we have today. Is that in alignment with what you're describing?

Kendell Johnson (14:18):

It's an interesting proposition, Jose. It's one that we've seen and studied to a certain degree. We love that model, and we, we, we certainly see it in the future to get there. Certainly there's going to be a lot of learning on both sides,

Jose Leal (14:33):

A lot of steps to take. So, you got to

Kendell Johnson (14:34):

Think about absolutely, but let's think about this, gentlemen. In America, many of the laws are based around ownership, right? Yes. Right. So this concept will, will have to be adopted. And I got to tell you, COVID i's helped us do that. Interest rates have helped do that. The cost of food has helped us to really understand that. So their feasibility of us moving to that type of economy, I truly believe that's something on the horizon. Before we get there, what we will see is a lot of hosts, or what we call vehicle investors or asset investors, house investors, item investors, and subscribers. And this marketplace will mature to, I am a subscriber and I'm an investor of all different types because I have to be, and the <affirmative> flow of money will increase because it's no longer, like you said, Jose Mya item, I'm putting an item out there.

Kendell Johnson (15:57):

It's its own product, and it's autonomous, right? And the state, you know, the shareholders that brought it to your fruition, they'll, they'll see some rewards for that. But there is a lot of evidence in statistics that we've seen, and even the economy, that consumers want more options, right? Consumers need to see more viability in their returns. This is why there are so many different ideas that were great, some, not so much, but people are looking for more ways to make the dollar go longer as well as more options for themselves. Those two things can only exist in certain models and one of those models of subscription.

Jose Leal (16:45):

No, that makes a ton of sense. One of the. things as Matt mentioned about our view of the current system being fiat-based of you, in other words, everything is about as you put it, power, right? Or I like to call it force, right? A force-based system where the individual not only holds the home and therefore has power over the home, but they also have power over what that home looks like in this neighborhood and, and this community. And it, it imposes on not just the asset, but it imposes on the people around us because we have this fiat power or the ability to say, this is mine, it's not ours, it's mine. And so, separating ourselves from that ownership gives us the ability to actually think about how we relate to these things commonly, right? Not just, I'm the owner, I can do whatever the heck I want because I'm the owner. When I'm not the owner and I actually have a relationship that isn't one of I own it, then how does that change, how does that relationship change with our homes, with our cars, with our products that we will be subscribing to? So, so how do you see that? What's, what's the, what's the human relationship aspect and, and legal in, in essence, right?

Kendell Johnson (18:27):

Jose? You pick up a great point. It's, in my opinion, a changing concept constantly. And I'll tell you why I think you, you, you, you said it best. How things are defined is dependent upon the owners, carmakers own the production of cars. And so, they have allowed only till now electric phenomenon to only happen. Now, let's be honest about that.

Jose Leal (18:59):

And they could have done it many, many years ago, as we know,

Kendell Johnson (19:02):

Many years ago, right? But I'll give you another example list on the demand side. On the topic of cars. Many car buyers really wanted their car to last long to be a functional extension of their smartphone. But that meant that any car would do many, I can tell you for a fact because we've done the research, a good reason many car manufacturer OEMs did not want that. They wanted you to see the differences with good reason on the different types of cars so that you would spend more for the ones that cost more. And they can do that because they own the car. So, they slowed down the evolution of the smartphone and the car and changed the algorithms and the way that it was displayed and the entertainment system because they wanted the car to be the focus. But more and more car buyers have said the most important is how I can connect to information.

Kendell Johnson (20:14):

Everything else is not as important. But because they don't own the cars, they're either renting, leasing, or otherwise, they had to wait up until this long, including the electrical revolution. I'm here to say that that momentum from the demand side has reached a point where car makers OEMs have no choice but to really change their attitude a little bit more to what the customers want. Electrification, bigger entertainment screens, more comforts, more car-like than trust truck lights. That's not by accident. That's because subscribing to a car or renting a car has increased in terms of demand. Customers are going to say, doesn't meet what I want. I'm, I'm just not going to take that car long term.

Kendell Johnson (21:12):

You're totally right about that. And I don't think it stops just with the auto industry. If you look at the way that we consume movies and shows, we've seen that also change in terms of subscription food. We've seen the delivery of food at a lower cost or things we've seen purchased through Amazon and Amazon-like companies. And it doesn't stop there. I'm here to say that I believe that more and more Americans and Canadians will err on the side of lifestyle and costs more than convenience that they don't care about because the avenue to get it is much easier today.

Jose Leal (22:03):

The question that I would ask about that though is if, if the manufacturers are still able to keep control of the manufacturing piece are we still going to live off of whatever they offer us? Are we going to be able to create our own subscriber-prescribable services and products? Because that's where I think there's this difference, right? If we get the GMs of this world to provide us with you know, a slightly better infotainment system that speaks to my iPhone and so on and so forth, which they've actually been going the opposite direction. Are, are we going to be able to is that going to be appeasing us for everything that you've just described? Or are we going to be able to get new companies to emerge that are actually going to be providing us what we're seeking, I think is what the new Apple, for example, is that what new Apple car is

Kendell Johnson (23:21):

Bang on? And you took the words out of my mouth. I think it's a slow evolution in my opinion, and there'll be agents of change. I believe that subscribe as an agent of change or many others who are agents of change. If you think about Toro, some of our major competitors, their agents have changed as well. And, but.

Matt Perez

The incumbent manufacturer realizes that they have to have options. And so, we'll see a lot of the change come in the form of options and agents of change will complement the marketplace. And then it's the consumer. The owner is still on the consumer to choose what they're, what their words, which we've been seeing to choose with demand, which we've seen in Covid to choose with how they consume. It's not what they consume, but if they're no longer buying small cars that are just good to get around now they're buying larger SUVs that have more options that can be shared amongst four or five people in a subscription model, at a hotel, at a condominium whenever they want it. That's a completely different model than when you and I and so…

Kendell Johnson

Well, there's another aspect that you're not selling to an individual. You're not relying on the opinion of an individual that's competing with other people to have the bigger car and whatever you're selling to a community. That's right. So, subscribers to a car are a community, and they're voting with their dollars every time they say, I don't want to subscribe to this car. I want to subscribe, subscribe to that car, which is more economical or electric, or whatever it is. So, the manufacturers of those scars would either go away or have to learn how to be more nimble on their on and be on their feet. So I see a lot of value in that. You mentioned one thing that is that I don't think they're a good force in society, and that's the Uber model because, you know, I, let's say that we all drive for Uber.

Kendell Johnson

We don't own anything. We own our car, which will bring along to the Uber experience, but we don't have the brand. Uber is owned by Uber. It's owned by the executives at Uber. And so that's one of the, I mean, that's another conversation we can have about that type of ownership. So, they own the Fiat own that brand, which we're all building for them. And we only get, right now, I think it's 50%. The guy told me the other day, he says, oh, they're only paying us 50% which is pretty bad. But now it's if you want to go international, they're the only option. And the only competition they have in the US I know Canada, but in the US is lift and there's no competition. Basically. Lift is stopping everything that over is doing. So

Matt Perez

I think we're looking to change that.

Kendell Johnson

A good model. Is that a good model? What I'm trying to say,

Matt Perez

I'll tell you what they have done that has uplifted the subscription experience. Uber allows for more options away from ownership. In fact, ownership none, none is, and whenever you want is very much part of their model. The second thing that they've done right is allow for more flexibility in the lifestyle. And there, there's, there's a lot of good companies coming on, including subscribe, who our, our, our backers truly believe that we will compete with the Ubers in the world, wherever they are. Because we are in between rideshare and ownership. But right in that middle, it's, if you, if you're taking Uber four times a day, and I agree with you Matt, you don't own the car or the driver or the experience, really, as long as unless it goes well or the brand or the brand would subscribe, you're subscribing to a car.

Matt Perez

It's not ownership, but it's not ride-share. If you take ride share and have an experience three- or four times a day, a week, that's a lot of Uber time. You might as well subscribe to a car and really take control, like you say, of your brand because you have the car and your experience. And that's what we do and that's why we believe that not too distant future from now, we'll be able to compete with them head-on Now, nobody has our model. The second thing I will say that Ryder has done has elevated uniformly across the world the notion of more options that are controlled by customers. Because the one thing I think, Matt, that we can't agree with is when you call a car, you do have that power to, to either call a car or not, but you don't have that payment of a car, and that's economic power that's giving back to the consumer. That's what a lot of investors are worried about.

Kendell Johnson

I see, I see that not of the description mm-hmm. <Affirmative> Yeah. As opposed to an Uber. But I was, I just, I wanted to make clear that the gig economy is really very exploitive and not something that we want, we want to have anything with. So, I just want to write this section.

Jose Leal

And I agree with Kendell and what you're saying, Matt as well, it's not so much what's being offered, that what's being offered is in the right direction. We're talking about splitting the, the vehicle, the use of the vehicle of a vehicle over many, many people over the, the, the, you know, a single day in the case of an Uber vehicle. What we're saying is we've taken the vehicle that used to be, in everybody's parking spot. Yeah. Sitting there waiting to be used and using it continuously, for a period of time. The problem is that, that that individual is now being him den he doesn't own the service he offers, right? He, he's forced to have a car of a certain age, of a certain style of a certain this and that in order to be able to be in that marketplace.

Jose Leal

But, he takes the risk. If he doesn't have enough service, that's not the company's problem, right? He, if he doesn't work enough hours, that's not the company's problem. If he doesn't pay for the gas, that's not com company's problem. And yet the company is the one who when he works and delivers a good service, the company benefits from building its brand. Yeah. And the individual sufferers they take the risk, the drivers take the risk, and the company takes the benefits. That's, I think where we're talking. And, and, but I agree with you Kendell, that it's still, even though it's not a good structure for, for gig workers it's still really going in the right direction Yes. Of where people want to consume. I mean, I drive my car once a week. It's sitting there in the carport you know, seven days out of the week.

Jose Leal

I drive it typically once a week. And it makes no sense. And my neighbors do the same thing. Why are you, why am I, why do I have a 2000-pound hunk of metal sitting both losing value and physically rotting away? It makes no sense. And we've spent a lot of human lives digging those minerals out of the ground, to transport them together, to assemble them together, to turn them into a vehicle, to have that vehicle sit there and go away. It makes, we, we haven't talked about, we've talked about the economy, we've talked about the behavioral changes that you're describing, I think very well Kendell. But we haven't talked about what happens with nature because we're abusing nature for this thing of, I own it. Most people have homes that are much bigger than they need. They have cars that are much bigger than they need. They have cars that are their own that aren't being used most of the time. Is that what we're talking about? Yep.

Kendell Johnson

100%. And the human cost as well. Jose, this is what gets me up in the morning, makes me so passionate about being in the subscription model. You nailed on a bunch of things that I know. Just a lot of heartstrings were going there because I think about them so often. The cost on the, on, on, on the, the cost on human lives, not only from an economic health or state level but the opportunity cost of if we're taking things out of the ground and it's causing harm to, then that community ultimately is going to be lost. That's just the reality of it. The second thing that I think you accurately described very technically is if it's an asset that's doing nothing, then really its opportunity costs one financially, but two, to reduce the stress on the economy. One car can serve 20 people instead of 20 cars serving each individual person just makes more economic sense.

Matt Perez

But the last part is what really gets me up in the morning these conversations through subscriptions and new ideas. And they, through my team, you know, one of the things that we have said is that we as a company want to be more empowering to the owners, the vehicle investors, those individual business owners. We almost want to be like an incubator and empower them on the platform that'll say A, B, and C company or A, C, D, and E company. And we're promoting them and teaching them how to be one better business only on a platform, but ultimately to be good stewards of the community, communities that are underserved communities, many in the black and brown communities that don't have opportunities to grow. Hire the students or a single mother, bring them into your vehicle investor portfolio, and uplift them. Use less vehicles, just the fleet that you have, but utilize, utilize them a little bit more proactively for the business and not when it's not needed.

Matt Perez

The last thing is also, I'll say one more thing that kind of ties us in, in, in, in in a boat, is as we're all coming up with these ideas of what's good and what's not, and we're taking away fiat from a lot of these companies and saying, think about it a bit differently. Think about it, about what you're constructing. Because if you're not, we're not going to consume that. Or we're, we have options to consume it another way. Think about the communities that you're impacting, both supply and demand. Think about the product itself. Can it last a little longer and be in use a little more, a little bit more efficient? And that's only possible if you're contributing to a model every little day in smaller bites with a purchase. It's one purchase and he no longer have to think about that car because it's out the door.

Kendell Johnson

But if I have to attend to you with good customer service and a good product consistently and a good name, then I'm going to care Jose and Matt about what you think about every single day. And so, what I manufacture tomorrow will really be based on our relationship today. And I think that's what subscription does today. If you can be, and I'll, and I apologize for being long-winded, but I do think this is important as we talk about subscription 2.0 now, right? If you can be that subscription company that is that incubator to make you better, to really have you shine, to teach you the right ways of conducting the business to give you a better product, that model, in my opinion, has a longer life. Because your customers will stay with you longer. And I say this to say, this is where the economy is going. This is what we're seeing on TV and our food on it really is about customer service, superior products, and in tune with the customers. And that's what subscriber is about. And there are many other companies that think about this, but we can't, we're not going back anymore. So I'm making the argument today to say that companies like this will stand the test of time because the economy is moving in this direction. Yes. Just interest rate is done to the economy. Yeah. What has started,

Jose Leal

I…

Matt Perez

Go ahead.

Jose Leal

I was just going to, you, you brought me back to when I was in Toronto you know, some 25 years ago I started a, a company there called auto net.ca, which was at the time so we're talking about cars. So, so at the time was the first automotive portal in Canada that had new cars, used cars, dealers, and all that other good stuff for the auto consumer. And when you think about car buying, it's a relationship between someone and a dealer slash manufacturer every 20 or so years.

Matt Perez

That's right.

Jose Leal

So, I don't have to listen to you for 20 years. I don't need to have a relationship with you for 20 years. And so, the whole industry was, I sell you the car and then screw you. You know, I don't need you anymore as a manufacturer. Right? The dealership was like, yeah, I want your service business, right? But, as a manufacturer, I don't need you because you're not going to buy a car anytime soon. In 20 years, you might buy another car or maybe 10 years or 15 years on average. And so that cycle of building a relationship where I can change my mind next month I'll just swap to another service, right? And this month after that, I'll swap to another one. You now have to pay attention to me. We need to have a relationship. I think that's what you just said, but it really resonated as I bounced back to that reality in, in that old world of mine.

Matt Perez (15:47):

Well, and it brings that connection closer. I mean, right now, as you said, the dealership between, and then there's some marketing people who do all kinds of stuff with the data that they get and the projecting years in the future. And there's no relationship there. But if, if I'm renting, you know, 10% of these cars today or, or subscribing to a subscription service, and then the next month they go, they don't want that car anymore, they want some other car, that tells me something immediately. So, I could see where that's more responsible. The thing not to forget is that the manufacturer is still the fiat owner of their car. And that's what we want to eliminate. But that's a long, that's a different story. Not different, but a longer story. Yeah. but I just wanted to remind people that we're about 40 minutes over the time. Because it's been very interesting and, and not what I expected, by the way, when I saw real estate and all that stuff, I went this is going to fit, but it, it does fit. So we want to go on or which we can, or do we want to shut it, you know, cut it down or?

Matt Perez

Sure. I have five more minutes. You guys are okay?

Jose Leal

As far as let's go.

Kendell Johnson

I wanted to mention that, that it doesn't stop with physical goods. I want to make the argument that digital goods yeah. Will be affected and the way we think will be affected, the amount of space that it, this, this is a bit of a stretch that an employer has on employees today will change as they get used to subscription. Oh, I want it. No, I don't. For this amount of time or less, more of my time or less, they'll do the same with their, per their person.

Jose Leal

To think differently. Yes…

Kendell Johnson

I agree. And this is another movement that I watched very closely over Covid as I made the argument today that the subscription really the lifestyle management from a person has taken over and will never go back after Covid. What I really meant is people had the opportunity to, they like what they don't like, where they want to be, and what they don't want to be most of the time. And a lot of folks had said, that's at home with my kids working remotely. And we saw a phenomenon of folks working remotely fast forward 18 months and the change in the economies, all of us here are students of the economy. And we saw that affected many organizations, including our favorite brands, and a lot of layoffs. But that said a lot of folks, especially younger folks, don't have as much forward-thinking opportunity to make money as we did, especially potentially your generation. So they, they, they feel differently. Are

Jose Leal

Are you saying they were older than you? Is that what you're saying? <Laugh>? Are you calling us old? It sounds like you're calling us old. I just, I just want to hear that clearly, you're calling us old. Is that two years…

Matt Perez

Old? <Laugh>, a lot of these folks, they're not going to go back to unless I am viewed as valued, I'm not doing that anymore. I would rather have five or six side hustles in this side hustle phenomenon and be in control of my, again, lifestyle. Exactly. My argument here is that's what's going to fuel a lot of what's going to happen in the future. Yes. Lifestyle.

Jose Leal

I couldn't agree with you more. Could not agree with you more. Yep. And, I appreciate what you've, you've brought to us because I think the work that we're doing, which is around bringing, decentralizing everything, right? And ownership being the mu the biggest piece. So decentralizing ownership is critical. Yes. That is, as you pointed out, that's going to take some time. But that's where people need, that's where they're, their direction is going. The younger folks especially. And you know, the old guys, as you pointed out, us old guys we'll die in our old homes and then those homes will turn into something that hopefully will become something different. But it's not, it's not about the old ways of working in the old ways of owning and the old ways of living. You know, your, your experience you said you talked, you worked at, at Oracle and, and IBM and, and Salesforce, I mean, Salesforce changed online computing Yep.

Jose Leal

Forever, right? Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And we went from you need to buy the software, you need to install it on your own hardware. You need to have it in your own premises too, well, it's in the cloud. What's the cloud? Doesn't matter. It just, it is. And now I don't want to have to install the software. It just, somebody says, oh, you have to install this. What the hell install what? That makes no sense. So, we've already had that in the digital world to some degree and it's thanks to that, that I believe we're at this stage where you're describing everything else is going to go down that path.

Kendell Johnson

Amen. I totally agree. I made a living at Salesforce on not, I'm not, I notion, and at first it was hard, as you mentioned, it was a lot easier a few years later and then the man came to us and I believe the same thing will happen with subscription.

Jose Leal

Yeah. Well, I wish you good luck with that. And we should keep talking because anything that we can do to help in that space, I think that's part of what we are doing.

Matt Perez

Well, we should introduce them to Oliver in my case and your, in your case. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And they can figure out if it makes sense or not. And because I think you, you guys are around you, you're aiming at the same thing for change, the same, you know, making those agents of change. You will… I think you're aiming at the same interaction. So, and, Christina will kill me if I didn't mention the book <laugh>. It's called Radical Companies - Without Bosses or Employees. And you can find it everywhere, but start@radicalcompanies.com, and then you can get it for nothing. Or you can buy a book or whatever you want. So, with that, I think we're done. Yeah.

Jose Leal

Well, thank you, Kendell. It's been a pleasure having this discussion with you.

Kendell Johnson

Thank you, Matt. Thank you, Jose. It was a pleasure. I look forward to potentially coming back or continuing conversation conversations. Thank you.