New Ways of Thinking, Doing and Being

Zola Rose (00:02):

I think that there's a little bit of a delay coming on my side with your sound, so I don't know if you asked a question, but I didn't hear it.

Matt Perez (00:12):

No, we were going through the, through the roll up and but now I'll ask a question of introduce yourself and income ground and what is so special about it. We, by the way, we have the same problem in, in the us

Zola Rose (00:31):

Yeah. There's I do follow in the United States, there's some really great models and movements, so I'm definitely trying to educate people in New Zealand particularly the role players who can do po make policy and be able to do things differently. Trying to bring some of those good ideas from America here to New Zealand.

Matt Perez (00:58):

Okay. And it's about housing and the price of housing and, and and the problem that that causes for people. Right. Common ground.

Zola Rose (01:13):

I heard around a, a affordability, I'm sorry, the question was a little bit choppy for me to hear. Could you please repeat the question?

Matt Perez (01:22):

Yeah, it is, is about housing and the lack of housing the lack of good housing and and that it is the right for people that has to live somewhere.

Zola Rose (01:38):

Yes. It's, it's all of those things. It's the right to housing, written into legislation, which we don't have in this country. It's recognizing what is affordable. There's different definitions of what is affordable, but our statistics here in Alto and New Zealand, well, the international standard is that a house to either rent or to buy in terms of those repayments that one is making to the bank or to the landlord, should only be one third at the most of a family's income. And in this country, we've got anything from six to 12 times what is somebody's income. And so people are spending more than 50% of their income. Yes. Rather than only up to 30%, meaning that what people have left to meet every single other one of their needs besides rent. It all has to fall within that, you know, the rest 50%, which is not enough. So it means that we've got then hidden poverty. We've got a lot of poverty that people have a roof maybe, but then they can't afford most basics, even food.

Matt Perez (03:00):

Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was lucky in that I bought my first house in the seventies and I bought this house later on, but if you hadn't been for that you know, it would've been a disaster. So let me tell you about radical and how maybe we can merge. The, the main, the main idea about radical is, excuse me, the main, main idea about radical is that if we own things, if we, if we would own more things in common, we would be okay. If we had to collaborate, we'd be okay. And usually the system that we live now, the FIAT system caters to competition and, and things like that that don't, don't add to human values. It doesn't do anything for me. I don't know about you, but here is you start to pin down any politician to talk about housing or talk about anything climate change or anything. And it is all done in, in bulk. So you have to vote for a democrat to, to even even be in line with you, not to listen to you, but be in aligned with you. It's not the same in New Zealand, or how does that work over there?

Zola Rose (04:37):

Well, I think in terms of our politicians, one of the reasons why we don't have some of the legislation that would help is because most of them own housing as an asset. And for instance, one of the very important legislations that most countries have, which is a capital gains tax, which means that if I buy a house at 300,000 and a couple years later without adding anything really to the house, but the housing prices just rise to let's say 450,000, and I sell that house, then I essentially have made an income of 150,000, you know, maybe minus some expenses. That one is incurred, let's just round it off to 150,000. Now, normally if I was having a business and making $150,000 profit, I would have to pay taxes, or if it was just income as an employee. But if one owns a house in this country, you get that 150,000 tax free, because that's called a, you know, a, a capital gains tax, which we don't have. And, and we've been many, many you know, decades of lobbying for capital gains tax. And I think the reason why it doesn't get enacted is because pretty much all the politicians have used housing as their form of investment and as their future retirement fund.

Matt Perez (06:14):

Yeah. And that's, that's pretty close to here. We do have the Texas here, the, the capital gain, Texas, but they don't, they don't make a difference. And and housing is seen as, as assets active Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> assets rather than Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> a passive investment. When mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, we bought our house. It was just house, and then it became a house that was growing in price. So we bought it at $174,000, which, you know, sounds reasonable. And we sold it at two and a half million dollars. We got a house more expensive than that. And and I, I ended up paying no taxes really, because what I pay here and, and what I got from the house was completely different. So the thing, so the thing is again, to bring it back to RI, is we believe we have to change the system.

Matt Perez (07:26):

We have a system that we call FIAT, which is everything is corporations of both shapes and forms. Ownership is, is all FIAT. It is all designed to separate you from Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> from the wealth. And and we want a system that's more like us and wants to build a community and, and things like a community. So we written a couple of books that I have to talk about and about radical companies and record in detail and things like that, even in the science fiction book, trying to illustrate that. But it's very hard to get people here, and they, they think, oh, that's like that and No, no, it's not like that. Oh, it's like that other thing. No, no, no, it's not like other thing. And it is very difficult to get the, the idea. So I, we wrote a children's book to see if that, if that solves it. And the whole idea is that when we have problem like this, it's not the revolution. I'm from Cuba and I'm tired of revolutions. And when, when we can sit down, when we have problems like that, we can sit down and talk and figure out what we need to do and and see how it affects the community and the affects the community more than the benefit than you don't do it. So so how do, how does that, does this sound compatible or, or how does that sound?

Zola Rose (09:23):

Are you saying Sorry, the question wasn't so clear. Is it that you were asking if it's compatible with, with that, with

Matt Perez (09:34):

Come ground, the things you want to do and, and stuff like that?

Zola Rose (09:42):

Sorry, there's just some delay in your sound. Can you just repeat that one more time and Yeah. Perhaps speaking a bit slower, I think it's so choppy, my reception on this side. Sorry about that. It's

Matt Perez (09:55):

No, no problem. Is what we're trying to do is, is people that align with us or we align with them, it doesn't matter. And do you think these align in that way

Zola Rose (10:12):

Align? Well, yeah. I guess in terms of common ground, if I were to go with the meaning of it, the meaning is around the fact that we've got commons. The commons are the air, the soil, the water. These are things that we all have equal access to. And yet when we privatize land, we then say that those things within that boundary of land are private, including the air, the water, the land, et cetera. And so there's a paradigm shift in how we think about land and land ownership, rather in this country. Before the white people, the western people arrived, the colonialists arrived. We have,

Matt Perez (11:08):

Oh. Carlos, I think we lost. So when she comes back, if you can merge the two, here she goes, no, we can't hear you.

Zola Rose (11:30):

You can't hear me.

Matt Perez (11:32):

Now I can, okay.

Zola Rose (11:34):

Now you can hear me.

Matt Perez (11:36):

Yeah.

Zola Rose (11:38):

Ah, okay. Should, should I start back at what I was saying around the common ground, the meaning of coming ground with Yes, please. Aligning with, okay. So the meaning there's two meanings of coming ground. The one is around ownership versus guardianship and stewardship of land, as well as the common resources that Mother Earth provides of water, soil, air, and mother nature herself. And when we privatize land and property, we're basically removing that from others' ability to be able to have access to what is actually should be freely available for us to be able to steward in the way that is for the greatest good. So the common ground is really reestablishing the commons and what is what are, how are we able to have a guardianship or a stewardship model instead of an ownership model when it comes to land and property.

Zola Rose (12:45):

And the other common ground is around us being able to get along, understand each other, and be able to reach some, whether it be consensus or make decisions that are win-win. And when we're talking again about stewardship or guardianship of property and land, that's really important that we have the skills and the ability, the frameworks, the techniques to be able to find common ground with those with whom we are sharing. Because it's different if you've got a ownership model, it's my way or the highway, you don't actually need to find any common ground. Versus when we move the whole paradigm of ownership to stewardship and guardianship, we all of a sudden need to find common ground on how are we going to be together, and how are we going to steward this land for the greatest good.

Matt Perez (13:41):

Right. Yeah. And that you mentioned the skills that it takes. Hmm. And it does take a different set of skills. I don't know about you, but when I was growing up not my father so much, but other members, family, if I said, oh, my, my friend hit me and they said, did you hit, hit him harder? You know, they, they wanted that competition and they wanted you to win. So it was my uncle, my uncle, okay. But it didn't help me any, I mean, the rest Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> as I was growing up, I was, I was, I was very competitive. And even with my family and stuff like that. And that doesn't help. So there's a lot of skills that we have to Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> that we have to acquire. And and the problem is how do we get the other people to, to adapt their skills? How do you think we would do that? We could do that.

Zola Rose (14:49):

Well, I know that one of the things that I help folks with, I use a framework called Nonviolent Communication that was developed by Mar Marshall Rosenberg decades ago. And it focuses on observations instead of judgements and opinions and expectations. It's has feelings and needs, rather than focusing on positions of, this is what I want, and it has requests rather than demands. And so it's a way of listening differently as well as expressing differently where we're really trying to find what is at the heart of beyond the words that are used, what is actually at the heart of the meaning and the needs of that person underneath those words, and being able to communicate with each other from that heart centered space. So that's one of the things that I do in addition because I believe that it goes hand in hand.

Zola Rose (15:52):

We can't talk about a new paradigm if we also don't have those human centered relational skills Yes. To be able to allow us otherwise we're just gonna keep defaulting to our usual way of interacting which is, again, that more power over model. And so we're looking at how do we have power with, and that's a little bit of a scary place for some people because it means they've got to give a little bit up and they're not in control. And that can be a bit disorienting for people. And so it's offering ways for us to bring real life situations into a space to converse about it honestly, and be able to try out different modes of communicating so that I, I do offer that also as a service within the, the wider context of shifting our paradigm around housing, land use, neighborhood development, and yeah.

Matt Perez (16:54):

But it also, it, it also affects misogyny and you know, the rights of L GBT plus people and all that stuff. So it's a system, and whether you like it or not, it pulls you into it as much as possible. So it is not just land and housing, it, it extends beyond that. Hmm. So and that's the, that's the thing. When we started this project, Jose and I had this thing of asking questions of each other. I was worse at it than he is. And but we ended up asking questions and, and there's more value in the questions than there is, than the answers. Nonviolent communications is a framework that I was influenced by as well. And it's, it's great because it's great <laugh>. So but the problem is we live in the FIAT world and, and we wanna move to this other thing which we call radical radical not in, in the sense of, you know, I'm gonna kill you or you're gonna kill me, or whatever is, is going to the root of the problem.

Matt Perez (18:21):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, what is, what is the thing that, that moves of that and, and ends up being against you? I'm gonna send you a paper that I just read by the county court called Brian said, I forgot his name, but anyways I'm gonna send you a paper. It's about housing. And that is not the usual supply and demand. There, there are other things that work and it might help you if you want me throw it out, it doesn't matter. But I, I think it's a good paper and again, it is, it's aimed at separating us from our livelihood.

Zola Rose (19:09):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Matt Perez (19:11):

And and that's not good. So, Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So one question I have for you is, you said that there's no legislation in, in New Zealand about anything that will help you. What, what do you think is missing

Zola Rose (19:36):

In terms of legislation?

Matt Perez (19:38):

Yeah.

Zola Rose (19:42):

Well, as I mentioned around the capital gains is one big one. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, there is, there could be better legislation around there's a policy called inclusionary zoning or inclusionary housing, which means that when a landowner has land in a rural area and it needs to be rezoned for residential, they are granted that rezoning by the local government. And then the value actually is retained by the developer because then they're able to sell the parcels of that land for much higher than they had the land originally bought. Because land at rural rates is much less than at residential rates. And so the only reason though, that they're able to capture people to be able to live there is because they're close enough to where there are already amenities that the local community or even the local government is supplying. So it, whether it be schools, roading, libraries, shops, all the local businesses, the infrastructure that's nearby, that has been developed and paid for by the local community.

Zola Rose (21:06):

Right? So actually the value that that land has is only able to be up valued because it's actually taking advantage of the value that that local community, just by the nature of them going about the daily lives and interacting, has created that that value in that community. So inclusionary zoning says that if we're going to give you greater value to be able to sell your plots at a much higher price than what you purchased for, to people who are coming from this area or going to be using services in this area, then we actually want some of that value to stay with the community or be offered back to the community. Right. And so it says that the developer has to give 10 or 20% of either the land or the up valued cost of that land to a charitable entity or back to the local government.

Zola Rose (22:12):

So if, for instance, there's a community land trust or a housing trust operating that is offering affordable housing Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, that profit could go to that entity or the developer itself could make part of their development themselves affordable. Meaning that it would be adjusted to it depends on what the cost of living settings are in any one area to say what actually is affordable Mm-Hmm. Because as we were saying earlier, it's actually no more than one third of an income, but what exactly, you know, is that number, if you're talking, what is the developer's pricing of that housing?

Zola Rose (22:58):

So to be affordable range. So that is what policy I think is quite powerful with creating community land trust, which is also something that local America

Zola Rose (23:15):

In the uk, the local governments then with being able to set up those charitable entities that then hold land in perpetuity for the purpose of affordable housing. So those two go quite well together as leavers. It could also be, for instance, that the local government usually requires what's called a development contribution. So that's a certain amount of money per plot that the developer has to give back to the local council. Well, that could actually be lowered if, again, those plots are given to affordable housing instead of the regular price.

Matt Perez (23:55):

Yeah, that's

Zola Rose (23:56):

<Inaudible>. Yeah. So those are just a few. I've actually just made my own podcast and submitted a news article about those things that local government specifically has available to it. And then of course, you have also your central, or, or I guess in America it's maybe called the national government that then can make other legislation.

Matt Perez (24:21):

Yeah. The, the trick here is affordable housing. Hmm. But affordable is very, it is not defined as, as far as I'm concerned. And usually affordable housing is reasonable, a reasonable price, but not so low that somebody not making a lot of money can, can afford it. In this community not that far from here. There was a farm in the middle of town, a huge farm, and they just sold it. And they're making, they, they have made a bunch of apartments and things like that. And there's, there's a affordable housing in some places and that, that gives 'em the blessing to, to go on. So yeah, it is a system again, that, that that is part of the system that makes, that keeps the whole thing rolling instead of accumulating wealth and stuff like that. And I get nothing against wealth, but I get, I get a lot against wealth if he harms other people. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, if it's distracted from other people, then, then that's a problem. If you do it because your own contribution, you invent to something, that's fine. But but yeah, that's the problem.

Zola Rose (26:05):

I, I did want to share another policy with, with you that I think is also quite radical. It's from Wales. So the country of Wales decided they wanted to be a one planet country so that the people of that country only are operating their lives as if there's one earth rather than in America. I think every American on average is operating their lives as if there was seven planets, seven Earths I think New Zealand we're sitting at five, just a little bit less, but, you know, needing five planets to meet all. And of course then there's other countries that are way below just because that's the nature of how much resources that each person is using. But, so Wales is sitting at, you know, more than a one planet, but they've made a whole nationwide policy called One Planet Development. And if someone's developing a new neighborhood or a new homestead, they can apply under the one planet development planning regulations, which then allow them certain abilities, maybe cost reductions of development.

Zola Rose (27:23):

If they can show that what they're gonna be doing on that land over time is going to give them a one planet output. So it might be the way they're doing their agriculture, the way they're capturing and storing their water the way that they're doing carbon sequestration, the housing and materials they're using for building. Right. So those are the things that they can do in the development, which reduces its impact and increases its positive impact. And the whole country has got that available to them. Huh. And so that's what I would love to see here in this country as well, a policy Rich, rich rewards, positive impact, and then, you know, has maybe negative consequences for those that wanna do business as usual kind of development. 'cause Actually who pays in the end, we actually pay as a whole community or as a whole country when we have a housing development that is using more than one planet worth of energy and resources.

Matt Perez (28:33):

So we have an opportunity to put those links with some explanations in the, the, the podcast notes or whatever, Carlos Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> calls them. And so he, he'll, he'll ask you for it because it sounds really interesting. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, I mean, the Industrial Revolution started out of the British silence, and it would be, it would be quite a lot that the research, the re restriction of the Earth is, comes from the same place. So it's like you created the problem and you now created the solution. So, Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, I'll take it anywhere I can. So so I, I dunno if you, if you have anything to say for closing or

Zola Rose (29:38):

I guess I did just want to add one other kind of legislation which you, I believe you have in America. And again, I guess the radical nature of it is such that we're, again, moving away from private and hierarchical ownership to more egalitarian and shared ownership, which is the cooperative housing model, which allows for folks to own a piece, a share in a company, a cooperative company, but that it's limited equity, meaning that the house prices don't enter the market when a house or the property is sold, it goes back to the cooperative, which then makes it available to the next family at the same, pretty much the same price, just with a bit of a cost of living increase. So that's a, a way of being able to make a security of tenure, meaning that people are secure for a long to be able to stay where they are for a long period of time without having the cost of being there continuously rising because of either a landlord putting up the price or it's usually the case if, if folks are renting, but in, in this case, it's sort of like a mixture between ownership and rental.

Zola Rose (31:00):

So they own a part of the company, but they're actually sort of renting the space that the, so the company owns a building or a property and, and people are given permission to occupy. So just, yeah, that's, there's so many different models from how we could look at it from a global perspective, like what Wales is doing all the way down to, well, do we have legislation which even allows these alternative, or in some cases it's not necessarily an alternative housing model. It actually exists, but it, it's not allowed yet by legislation in that country. As New Zealand, we don't have that legislation. Right, right. So I kind of wanna end to say that if people are interested in making some sort of a solution wherever they're living in their community to this housing crisis, whether they're themselves caught in it and want to advocate for better solutions, if they're working for government in some way, if they're a developer or a landowner, there's absolutely something that each person can do at their within their capacity to make a difference.

Zola Rose (32:12):

And people can get in touch with me if they would like to see those models in ways that people can make some sort of a positive contribution. And of course then it's, you know, really it's changing. It is a paradigm shift. So we just need to be persistent in our working, you know, in our narrative to get these, this new paradigm in, and I think local, you know, think local that we're not trying to necessarily change the whole country, but if each one of us just thinks, what can I do in my local place? Absolutely. Change is possible.

Matt Perez (32:49):

Yes. And I'm really big on, on thinking local. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in that we know each other, we know the situation here and, and we know what to do. In the city of ca, California the state is mandating certain things of the town to have more people and more of this and more of that. And and it's, it's not good for area, here's a very narrow BA Valley and Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, it happens that way, but they're not here. They're from San Francisco or whatever. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so anyways, yeah, I, what I invite you is give all stuff to Carlos and, and we can put it in the notes and then we'll go back back to you with questions and stuff, so we can help you with that. I have to please mention the incoming on the website, and I don't know what the upcoming is, so I'm gonna look I still see solo, so I don't, I don't know what to announce <laugh>. So so anyways, thank you very much. Just a website. Oh, so there's the radical web, www radical world lot Live p slash p slash upcoming minus one. I don't know when, what, minus one. But that's it, that's what you wanted me to announce. And thank you very much for your time and your attention and everything and and some of the listeners that you have taught us, really appreciate it.

Zola Rose (34:54):

Wonderful. Thanks for hosting me. It's nice to be able to share my, my all the resources that I have and help hopefully give people hope and some agency in their local area

Matt Perez (35:10):

Agency. That's very important.

Zola Rose (35:11):

That's it. So yeah, <laugh>. Great. Thank you very much. And I look forward to continuing to sh follow what you are offering on a regular basis under this banner of Radical world.

Matt Perez (35:26):

Okay, will do

Zola Rose (35:28):

Thank you.